Imagine the backlash if this said “Men’s Parking”

[–]SpacemanSqiff 12 points13 points14 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]NAWALT_VADER 7 points8 points9 points 7 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

It's done because parking garages are a common point of attack for women

Men are actually more likely to be attacked in a parking garage than women, by a large margin.

According to the stats compiled by the National Center For Victims Of Crime for 2015: (https://ovc.ncjrs.gov/ncvrw2017/images/en_artwork/Fact_Sheets/2017NCVRW_Assault_508.pdf)

Men are more likely to be victims of assault from strangers. Men are more likely to be victims of assault in parking garages. Women are more likely to be victims of assault from someone they know, and most likely to be assaulted in their home.

Men are much less likely to be followed by a "normal" looking woman in a desolate parking garage

Men are also attacked by other men too, not just by women. Do you feel that if a man is attacked by a man, that is somehow not important or doesn't matter? Do you feel that men also deserve protections from violent assaults?

It could happen, yes, but the epidemic in these locations is with women being overpowered and assaulted

No, if there is to be said to be an epidemic of violent assaults in parking garages, then it is men who should be protected more because they are more often the victims of such violence in such places. Men are far more often the victims of violence in parking garages than women.

It's easily foiled by just dressing like a woman, too.

Nobody needs to dress like a woman to identify as a woman. That is sexist.

[+]saddest_unicorn -8 points-7 points-6 points 7 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

Men are actually more likely to be attacked in a parking garage than women, by a large margin.

Yes, by other men. Unless you bar all people from the parking garage and render it useless, there isn't a way to say "hey, these are the likely perpetrators of the violence" because the primary victims are also the perpetrators in the male/female divide. Like I said I don't think it's a good solution, but it is a practical one.

Men are also attacked by other men too, not just by women. Do you feel that if a man is attacked by a man, that is somehow not important or doesn't matter? Do you feel that men also deserve protections from violent assaults?

What I said above answers this as well.

No, if there is to be said to be an epidemic of violent assaults in parking garages, then it is men who should be protected more because they are more often the victims of such violence in such places.

And also addresses this.

Nobody needs to dress like a woman to identify as a woman. That is sexist.

If they reasonably pass as a woman in a space that has been put aside for women, they blend in, the same way a would-be attacker blends in as a "regular, nonviolent guy" in your average parking garage. It is nothing about self-identity. They may manipulate the sexist expectation of "a woman looks like x". It's social engineering and deception. It works.

[–]NAWALT_VADER 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

Yes, by other men.

What I said above answers this as well.

And also addresses this.

You disregard male victims because they are attacked by other males? That is insane. Why not just disregard all human victims whenever they are attacked by other humans? Do you also disregard black victims when they are attacked by other black people?

Men are equal to women. We also deserve protections in society. We would like safe parking garages for everyone, not just women. Men also deserve to be safe from violence.

male/female divide.

This is the problem. The way you are dividing it is sexist. You divide it on the assumption that all attackers are male, and all males are attackers. I know you said that you recognize this is not the case, but your solution disregards this observation of fact. This is a sexist viewpoint. You are dividing the problem into male and female, which is the wrong way to look at the problem. The actual problem is between attackers and victims. Some attackers are male, and some attackers are female. Most attackers are male. The important point to remember is that the vast majority of males are not attackers.

If they reasonably pass as a woman in a space that has been put aside for women, they blend in, the same way a would-be attacker blends in as a "regular, nonviolent guy" in your average parking garage. It is nothing about self-identity. They may manipulate the sexist expectation of "a woman looks like x". It's social engineering and deception. It works.

I'm not suggesting anyone needs to put on a dress and makeup to park there. I don't feel there is any need to attempt to "pass as a woman". People can now self-identify as whatever gender they choose apparently, and nobody is allowed to question that. In fact, arguing with someone about their declared gender is illegal in some places, having been made into a hate crime. Such laws have been pushed for probably by the same people who pushed for a parking sign like this to be put in place. So a person with a full beard could park there, say they are a woman (whatever that even means anymore) if someone dared to assume their gender, and the only person in potential trouble would be the one who questions the bearded person for parking there.

These types of parking signs are ridiculously ineffective, are needlessly antagonistic towards men, while simultaneously infantilizing women. The Matriarchy is doing great so far.

[–]saddest_unicorn -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

You disregard male victims because they are attacked by other males?

I am not disregarding them. I am saying the solution that works for women, is not a viable solution for men. A solution for men should be found, but again: the one that works for women, does not work for men.

Men are equal to women. We also deserve protections in society. We would like safe parking garages for everyone, not just women. Men also deserve to be safe from violence.

I agree, but again: the solution that works for women, does not work for men. This works for women. It does not work for men. Cancer treatment does not work for diabetics. There is not a clearcut way to separate men from their primary assailants when they belong to the same group.

You divide it on the assumption that all attackers are male, and all males are attackers.

The fact is that the primary assailant for both groups is male. Again: it is easy to separate females from males in order to reduce the attacks on them, but you cannot do the same for men since they are men. The "male/female" divide I am talking about is not a sexist comment; the "divide" I am talking about is that females are not attacked on a large scale by their own sex, as men are. Men are attacked by each other. Women are attacked by the opposite sex. This creates a difference.

The important point to remember is that the vast majority of males are not attackers.

But, the mass majority of attackers are males even if the majority of males are not attackers. That is the point. It is easy to reduce attacks on one group when they do not belong to the attacking group, by removing them from that group. It is not easy to protect members of the group doing the attacking, when they are of the same group.

I'm not suggesting anyone needs to put on a dress and makeup to park there. I don't feel there is any need to attempt to "pass as a woman". People can now self-identify as whatever gender they choose apparently, and nobody is allowed to question that. In fact, arguing with someone about their declared gender is illegal in some places, having been made into a hate crime. Such laws have been pushed for probably by the same people who pushed for a parking sign like this to be put in place. So a person with a full beard could park there, say they are a woman (whatever that even means anymore) if someone dared to assume their gender, and the only person in potential trouble would be the one who questions the bearded person for parking there.

This is irrelevant to what I was saying. The only thing I said is that if someone who is already happy to deceive others to allow them to do harm by posing as a regular guy going to his car, he can just as easily do what would make him pass as a female even though he does not identify as a female to serve his desire to commit a crime. My point was that the ability to essentially don a disguise to deceive others and "blend in" makes this a flawed protection system. Nothing to do with actual identity.

[–]NAWALT_VADER 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I am not disregarding them. I am saying the solution that works for women, is not a viable solution for men.

You are clearly disregarding male victims, suggesting they should find their own way to be safe. The solution to protecting victims of violence is not to protect just female victims of violence. That is sexist. That disregards male victims of violence. Protect all victims of violence. Doing otherwise exacerbates the problem and fixes nothing.

This parking sign was probably the cheap, "virtue-signaling" method of giving the appearance of attempting to solve a problem without actually investing any significant money on the part of the building owners. An honest solution to the problem of crime and violence in parking garages is to install cameras, more lighting, and security patrols. Those are proven and effective methods, but they cost money. Signs, on the other hand, are cheap. But it solves absolutely nothing. Women should be arguing against these sorts of "solutions", not supporting them. This doesn't make anyone safer, but might make them feel that they are, which actually puts them in more potential danger than if they had otherwise remained vigilant and wary.

this a flawed protection system.

On this, we agree.

[–]saddest_unicorn -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

The solution to protecting victims of violence is not to protect just female victims of violence.

You cannot protect male victims in the same way you can protect female victims. You cannot protect cervical cancer victims the same way you protect bone cancer victims.

This parking sign was probably the cheap, "virtue-signaling" method of giving the appearance of attempting to solve a problem without actually investing any significant money on the part of the building owners.

It does solve a problem, albeit not 100%; it will reduce rates of women being assaulted in this location. I agree it is likely done because it is a cheap solution, but that's more of an issue of resources and how willing business owners are to shell out money for safety. If they can increase safety at all in an easy and cheap way, regardless of who it benefits, they will do so, because any safety increase at all to any human is a net good. It is better to increase safety for anyone, in any way possible, than it is to not increase safety at all. If the option is "sign and slight safety increase" or "no sign, because we can't/won't invest in better security measures, so we should do nothing" there is still an increase in safety with the first method. With the second method, you decline an ability to increase safety for some even though you have the ability to do so and opt instead to increase harm. As I've said many times: this is not an ideal solution, but it is a practical one that serves a good, even if it is a flawed good. A good shouldn't be destroyed unless another good can take its place.

However, even if they did shell out the money for additional security systems, patrol guards, the associated tech support needed for cameras and staff to monitor video feeds, etc. etc. this solution would still provide a net increase to safety in a way that cannot be replicated for male victims because of the fact I've mentioned already; you cannot separate men from men, and women are not being disproportionately attacked by other women. There is an inequality in that just as much as there is an inequality in who is doing the assaulting.

[–]NAWALT_VADER 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]saddest_unicorn -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]NAWALT_VADER 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I disagree. You haven't addressed the points I have just said either; just taken to something akin to an insult in lieu of a critique.

It seems to me you are a sexist who only sees importance in protecting women. If not...

The fact still stands that this produces a net increase to safety that cannot be replicated for men due to the statistical fact of who is committing the crimes.

Why can't it be replicated for men..? If the goal is simply to produce a net increase to safety, then give men those special safe spots. Right? More men are attacked in parking garages. So, protect the most vulnerable group, the group that is attacked the most. Put them right next to the door, with the bright lights. That will reduce attacks against men. Net increase to safety. Is that palatable to you? Would you say "Yay! Net increase to safety!" or would you cry "Sexism! That puts women in danger!" Or maybe women should just stay home.

[–]ld2gj 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]saddest_unicorn -5 points-4 points-3 points 7 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Like I said, I do not think it is an ideal solution. But seeing a man in the women's section will send off alarm bells specifically for the reason you mentioned; it will make them think "he is clearly here to target women", and give them the opportunity to put their guard up, vs. "oh he's just a dude going to his car, normal harmless guy, it's fine to be distracted by my phone and walk slowly" etc.

Women are accessible everywhere, also. It gives him a single point to focus on, but it's hardly different than waiting in a normal parking garage, except now he's extra suspicious.

it is still illegal and discriminatory

Gender segregated bathrooms, changing rooms, locker rooms, etc. are for some reason ignored by this, though? We have, in some places, designated parking spots for pregnant women, too. The line is a bit fuzzy.

[–]ld2gj 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]saddest_unicorn -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

No equivalent male parking to the pregnant women parking spaces, though.

The practical reason behind the female-only parking area doesn't apply to men, also. There is no significant need to protect them from female assailants in a shady parking garage. There is a need to protect them from other male assailants, but that's a bit tricky unless you want to ban both the victims and the assailants at the same time by banning all men.

Again, I don't think it should be a satisfactory permanent solution; but it is a practical solution to a problem and I understand why it is being done. I don't think it should be considered a permanent solution/norm because it could just as easily be "well, black people are more likely to commit crime, let's give them their own corner". But even in that there is a difference in that they have no real target victim (except, statistically, other black people; same problem now as the man-on-man violence) while with women there is a specific issue with women being victim to one group, in a particularly sex-focused way. This is also not necessarily harming men by depriving them of the general-use areas or leaving them with nowhere to go. Practical solution that doesn't directly harm men, but not an ideal one; a bandaid of sorts.

[–]ld2gj 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]saddest_unicorn -2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

It isn't an ideal solution, but I do see this existing as better than it not existing; it does more good than harm. Men aren't being deprived of a parking garage by allotting a corner to women. The two have different needs. Bras are not sold in the men's section but no one claims its discrimination due to them being marketed to women only, because (most) men don't need them. Men don't need men's only parking garages because, like most men not having breasts and no need for bras, most men are not likely to be targeted by women in these areas and thus don't have a need to be separated from the opposite sex. One has a need that the other does not (to be separated from the opposite sex for safety; for bras, gynecologists, neonatal care, etc.). Men do have a need to be protected from other men though, but, like I said before, that's a lot harder to work out.

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Title	Imagine the backlash if this said “Men’s Parking”
Author	doubleA529
Upvotes	80
Comments	34
Date	February 14, 2019 3:22 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/aqkuax/imagine_the_backlash_if_this_said_mens_parking/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/imagine-the-backlash-if-this-said-mens-parking.883811 https://theredarchive.com/post/883811

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