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I Deconstructed A Facebook Post Riddled With Misinformation About Men, With Real Statistics And A Voice Of Reason - I figured r/MensRights would appreciate it!

safkan04

September 3, 2018

17 upvotes

https://medium.com/@sahkilic/my-man-hater-facebook-friend-e21281cfd3bb?source=friends_link&sk=0acffa411910a58da24aecce6f092592

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Post Information

Title	I Deconstructed A Facebook Post Riddled With Misinformation About Men, With Real Statistics And A Voice Of Reason - I figured r/MensRights would appreciate it!
Author	safkan04
Upvotes	17
Comments	69
Date	September 3, 2018 1:52 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/9chgua/i_deconstructed_a_facebook_post_riddled_with/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-deconstructed-a-facebook-post-riddled-with.894933 https://theredarchive.com/post/894933

Comments

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Since it seems like you're open to feedback, I have two thoughts. Feel free to ignore otherwise.

Style-wise you're clearly a strong writer. I don't think deconstruction was the best approach to this thing because you're not just tearing down the opposing argument, you're making solid positive arguments to the contrary. Organizing around those instead of the more line by line approach would serve that case well.

Content-wise I disagree with the interpretation that your friend is "white knighting," or I don't think that's his primary purpose. I do give him a little more leeway as a guy writing this, because most of us tend to take more liberty when we're addressing our in-group. More importantly though, a white knight response would be saying, "Look how virtuous I am for speaking on women's behalf." I interpret him as saying, "For the love of God, guys, stop embarrassing the rest of us."

[–]safkan04[S] 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for the feedback,

Taking it line by line was too tempting. There was just so many things wrong with the post (in my opinion). Also, I was wondering if you could expand on what you meant by making solid arguments to the contrary? I don’t think, as far as doubling back and checking, that I made arguments that this type of behaviour was ok. I’d love to hear your take on it, if you could give me an example? Or did you mean I was making positive arguments perpetuating that this behaviour by men doesn’t exist at all?

And your second point, yes I’ll admit that the white knighting was a throwaway phrase that I mentioned 1 time near the end. It was just another question to decipher whether there’s some sort of other motif of appealing to these groups behind posting this content.

It’s also worth to note that this person is not my friend. This person posted this publicly and it got picked up by a few pages. My Facebook friend (a young woman) shared the post from a page with 80k followers that had reposted from the original writer.

I do disagree with your very last sub point. I think this is heavily detrimental and the interpretation, although up for debate, pulls people (especially young men) away from the attempted message.

But that’s ok, and we can all have different opinions and thoughtful disagreement. Appreciate you taking the time to read and respond to shed some light on how others may have taken it. Again, thank you for your feedback.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I get the temptation. Honestly, mostly, it's a style of argument people often use to tear down things without having a better idea themselves. You can make anything sound stupid via deconstructing it. But you're not just saying, for instance, "stop being a slacktivist" or "stop generalizing about entire groups." You're also saying, "organize around positive messages," and "exercise individual empathy." It might seem like that's inferentially obvious, but there's a clear difference in style between someone who is advocating by virtue of wanting a better alternative and someone who is just looking for excuses to tear down the other side.

I sympathize both with you and with the person you're criticizing. Here's an argument I've had too much:

Them: The wage gap is a myth.

Me: Here's the well-documented evidence for what it is and how it plays out.

Them: No, men just like working harder and pick higher paying jobs.

Me: There are no bad guys here. It's not something men or women choose, it's a function of how workplaces evolved. Addressing it is also good for fathers and single parents.

Them: You're just too emotional to see that gender differences exist.

Me: You know what? I gave you the appeals to both logic and empathy and you were an ignorant condescending asshole about it. Now I'm going to satirize you by using your same obnoxious argument against you and hope against hope some part of your brain goes, "Hey, it's no fair that this person is making all these negative generalizations about....me...oh I get it now."

The post you responded to sounds like me at Stage 3. I get where he's coming from. At the same time, by Stage 3 my motives aren't pure. Am I really hoping that ironic ridicule will work, or have I overexhausted my patience and am now setting them up to miss the obvious for my own petty satisfaction? How often does ridicule ever work, really?

The depressing answer, in my experience, is not less often than reason or empathy

[–]safkan04[S] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]fengpi 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]safkan04[S] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]RobertCatherine1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Wary. Herd mentality.

Also, what is a True Feminist doing in Australia? Shouldn't you be in Scotland?

[–]safkan04[S] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]thrway_1000 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]mwobuddy 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (59 children) | Copy Link

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[–]mwobuddy 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (55 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago (54 children) | Copy Link

[–]fengpi 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

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[–]fengpi 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (14 children) | Copy Link

Have you ever had sex with someone who is showboating the whole time, even though it's just the two of you?

No, not really, I've been pretty appreciative and respectful of my partners during those very precious experiences, many of which I savor as shining diamonds in my mind. Seeing as how I treasure those memories and the women that I was with at the time. And sometimes, they send me messages fondly remembering me as well.

I guess I haven't been spoiled rotten enough with an overabundance of options to the point where I am hypercritical of my past sexual partners, nit-picking and criticizing and loathing how they fluttered their tongue at my crotch too slowly, or too quickly. Or how they did it for too long, or too short a time, without fluttering the tips of their tongues in exactly the right pattern as my silent connoisseur of a libido demands, as if they needed to impress the hell out of me, as if they were playing a game of Simon™ on the topmost Expert Advanced Level while performing feats of telepathy which would impress Uri Geller on stage, for I unfailingly deserve that kind of thing every single goddamned time I remove my panties in a drunken stupor. Right?

I sort of highly appreciate and value the women who get naked with me, understanding that sex can sometimes be a spontaneous and sloppy affair, riven with surprises (both good and bad), but nonetheless a very delicious thing, one that requires people to respect one another, and even if things don't work out I still get to enjoy my warm body hugging against theirs in an intimate and blissful feeling that some men will gladly pay thousands of dollars to enjoy. Seeing as how both parties get a chance to love and adore one another's bodies in the most intense sharing of pleasure which exists on the planet.

But then again, I'm a completely fucked-up bastard to whom people should never listen-- who cares what I say? What do I know?-- All I know in my sad life is spitefully ripping the flesh off of peoples' bodies in red bloodied chunks and turning their flesh into coats and carpets in my torture-basement. Or so the feminists tell me.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]fengpi 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link

I know, I know. I guess I just can't sympathize with someone whose biggest complaint is that their specific erotic fantasies aren't being catered-to upon demand in exactly the way I want, on a golden platter. I just can't sympathize with that.

So you ask me-- don't I hate it when my partners showboat in bed? Uhh.. No? No, actually, I don't. I really don't hate them for doing that, no.

Let me guess? 10 years from now, you'll complain that men no longer buy you drinks all night long when you're in the nightclub? How terrible it is, you no longer get free drinks.

Well, Jesus goddamned Christ. I certainly don't know what that's like to have people buy me drinks all night long. I really don't. Free drinks keep re-appearing in your hand all night? Over and over? Oh, well, good on you. Good golly miss Molly, isn't that wonderful?

Know how many drinks women have bought for me? ZERO! Fucking ZERO, right? ZERO. So it's hard for me to sympathize. Zilch. Nada. I can't mourn the loss of something I've never had.

And when you turn 33, the free drinks no longer appear? Oh, well, boo fucking hoo then. How horrible that must be. What a loss. How terrible for you. What! A! Loss! Oh, how awful. Now you have to buy your own drinks. Oh, crikey, that is bad bad bad, isn't it? Bad deal. Bad news. Bad juju. Bad medicine. Me? I dunno, never had a free drink in my life. I just don't know.

Me? I've bought my own drinks all my life. I've bought my own drinks all along the whole time, and I've also bought many drinks for women just like you, so I really can't appreciate what you're complaining about. Am I'm supposed to feel bad, princess? You, who no longer gets free drinks all night?

Sorry, my sympathy reservoir is running low.

Also? I don't know what it's like to have my lovers fail to buy me diamonds, for fucks' sake. Beause I've never had lovers buy me diamonds. Right? And that's another thing I can't criticize my past lovers about.

My past lovers never bought me diamonds. What cheapo creeps they were. Right girlfriend? Right? Cheapo past lovers never bought me diamonds. We're both victims here, right? High-five? High-five girlfriend? Right?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

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[–]mwobuddy 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

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[–]mwobuddy1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sex shouldnt be about your ego!

So I'll shame you for not being able to give me an orgasm cause you suck in bed!

Even though my orgasm is not your property and you cant say YOU made me cum!

Which is it? Is a guy good enough in bed to 'make' her cum, or is that a guy participating in 'ego project', and he should stop participating in an 'ego project' and he shouldnt worry that she doesn't cum, and that there's no such thing as 'he sucks in bed' because its not under his control whether she cums or not?

The next time Im fucking a woman I'll definitely tell her she sucks in bed, because of this article. Also I'll tell her that she can't make me cum and doesn't own my orgasms. Hopefully it happens to you too.

There's a rule of female behavior:

Guy can't cum? Its his fault.

I can't cum? Its his fault.

He cheated on me? His fault.

I cheated on him? His fault.

You're participating in this male hyperagency along with the author.

[–][deleted]1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]mwobuddy1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

To repeat: It's not. About. Him sucking. In bed

So why did you say "how would you like to hear that you suck in bed"?

You're completely fucking lying, but it was an answer.

Oh, okay. So someone answers with something you don't like and they must be lying.

Virtually any rational person would think the same thing: she's being needy. It's insecure.

I'll be sure to tell my friends they're being insecure next time we're hanging out and they want to do something else like go to the movies. When people want to do more stuff with someone, that's insecurity.

She's making it about her needs.

Two people having sex are ultimately both trying to fulfill their own needs. Who are you trying to kid here? Yourself?

People don't date uglies. They don't make friends with the retarded. Because people want their needs filled and they choose people who will do that.

How would you respond to someone begging for praise over something they aren't good at?

Loaded Language fallacy. You've presumed that someone is begging for praise to score an argumentative point.

It's not. About. Him sucking. In bed. It's about the insecurity that drives him to beg her for a complement she can't honestly give.

So its not about sucking in bed, even though she cant honestly compliment him as 'not sucking in bed'. Hmm.

for future reference, I've cuddled with women. I've cuddled with men. I was part of very liberal subcultures and everyone enjoys being able to have that at some point. No one should be condemned for asking if they can have that. Relationships are about negotiations. Maybe your failure to understand that is why yours are so shitty.

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