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"Why girls can be boyish but boys can't be girlish." It's at CNN and quotes the egregious Kimmel, so you know what to expect.

ThePigmanAgain

April 12, 2018
9 upvotes
/r/MensRights
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/04/12/health/boys-girls-gender-norms-parenting-strauss/index.html
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Title "Why girls can be boyish but boys can't be girlish." It's at CNN and quotes the egregious Kimmel, so you know what to expect.
Author

ThePigmanAgain

Upvotes 9
Comments 26
Date April 12, 2018 9:47 PM UTC
(8 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/8btzeo/why_girls_can_be_boyish_but_boys_cant_be_girlish/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/why-girls-can-be-boyish-but-boys-cant-be-girlish.902914
https://theredarchive.com/post/902914
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Comments

[–]thrway_1000 13 points14 points15 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Men have been trained to put up with a lot from women, the reverse is not the case. Women typically define masculinity because it's traits they find acceptable and want from a man. When puberty hits and boys crave female attention those traits become very important. Before that, boys do what they want and don't care about what anyone but their friends think.

Archive -- https://archive.is/AFu01

[–]HeForeverBleeds 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Boys do have stricter roles they're expected to conform to than girls, but it's not because of misogyny or because people hate femininity. For example, when males are demanded to register for selective service, but females have the option of either joining the military or not, this isn't because of a hatred of females

It's because men and boys are perceived as disposable tools that are only valued for how well they perform, whereas women and girls are valued just for existing. You don't need or want tools to have options in expressing themselves or to have choices in how they are to live their lives. You just need them to fulfill the function and role they're expected to

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's because men and boys are perceived as disposable tools that are only valued for how well they perform, whereas women and girls are valued just for existing. You don't need or want tools to have options in expressing themselves or to have choices in how they are to live their lives. You just need them to fulfill the function and role they're expected to

This is probably depressingly accurate.

[–]fengpi 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Not only that, but the modern trend is to say "girls can totally perform any of those functions just as well, if they feel like it. But they don't have to do anything if they don't feel like it, whatever."

And then people wring their hands about the outcomes not being 50-50, as if there is no difference between someone being required to work a function and someone who works the function as an option (for "personal fulfillment," perhaps) which they are allowed to quit at any time.

[–]fengpi 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Lemme guess: because society hates women and treats them as an underclass. Also, the peasants aren't allowed to wear crowns and make proclamations because society hates royalty.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

Is there a problem with the article? Looks like mom is experiencing what we've been saying for a while; it's become a woman's world, and boys are expected to conform to a strict "boy" mold, where girls are given freedom to be anything they want.

She finishes up by encouraging her son to be himself and like what he likes. Where's the harm in that message?

( and of all the trash TV my daughter got sucked into, I actually liked my little pony. The writers did a good job with that show )

[–]tenchineuro 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

She finishes up by encouraging her son to be himself and like what he likes. Where's the harm in that message?

Are you sure that's not like what the mum wants him to like? They're clearly not letting him know about other boys and the environment is supposedly gender free, which seems to mean an environment were female likes and actions are the default.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

You're reading a lot that wasn't written.

[–]tenchineuro 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

He has spent his early years in Oakland, California, largely surrounded by adults who avoid use of the nouns "boys" and "girls" unless necessary. His world is blissfully, ignorantly gender-neutral.

Then she says stuff like,,,

My son freely and easily identifies as a boy.

How can he when he has no idea what that means, his parents have raised him with girl toys, say, are his parents Swedish?

He doesn't need our help in his rejection of the label of "boy"; he needs the meaning of that label to expand.

First they say that he identify as a boy, then a few sentences later that he rejects the label boy, this article is as gender confused as the boy. Another problem, the word 'boy' is no more a label than the word 'girl', they both mean something.

In her recent book "Women and Power: A Manifesto," Mary Beard encourages readers to scrutinize our notions of power, particularly those inhospitable to behaviors and experiences traditionally associated with women. "If women are not perceived to be fully within the structures of power, surely it is power that we need to redefine rather than women?" she writes.

So this is really about women and power after all, with a big leadin, what a shock.

Raewyn Connell, author of "Masculinities," said many teenage boys still feel as though they must avoid any signs of weakness or femininity.

Only if they want girlfriends and some semblance of a normal life.

"With teenage boys, the search for respect and recognition often results in exaggerated displays of dominating masculinity: the football hero, the first guy in the peer group who smokes, the playground bully, etc.," Connell said. This is often accompanied by "a stark rejection of 'girl things.' "

Why the word 'stark', they are not girls, why should they want girl things, what they normally want a girlfriend and if they act as she suggests, they will never get one.

Broadening boyhood will also help give legitimacy to women's work and interests,

Which is, after all, what this article is all about, it not really about boys at all.

He also doesn't need my protection.

He might need protection from being the gender experiment you are raising him as.

Elissa Strauss writes about the politics and culture of parenthood.

And how everything done must be with elevating women in mind.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

Impressive. However, your interpretation requires certain leaps of...well, I would hesitate to call it "logic". Fantasy seems to fit a little better.

All in service to fit your own narrative. Remind you of any other group out there? Hint: They like to get triggered off of things that no one says and enjoy long walks along the sea of delusions.

Yes, there's a bit of a female bent to it, but it's hardly worth worrying about. This was a remarkably positive article, especially considering it's from CNN. My god, she even says this: "All this might make you conclude that girls have it better. And in some ways, they do."

Just because the opposite of the feministic nonsense of "there are no genders" is the rigid enforcement of gender roles doesn't mean it's right. Kids should be free to discover their own likes and interests, absent gender enforced pressures. And before you say it's abnormal for boys to like female things; I loved dolls as a kid. My father hated it, always tried to get me to play sports ( which i liked, and did ), but I also enjoyed playing with dolls and stuffed animals.

As I grew, my nurturing tendencies only matured in to traits which, yes, I was bullied for, but they were ultimately a part of who I was and eventually helped me become an amazing father ( most days ).

Should I have been punished more for liking dolls when I was 3-4? If so, explain to me how that's any better than parents enforcing gender confusion in the service of "there are no genders" narrative?

[–]tenchineuro 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Yes, there's a bit of a female bent to it, but it's hardly worth worrying about.

Boys should be like girls because it somehow empowers women, that's pretty much what this article is about.

I wish the best for the boy, but I have some worries.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Boys should be like girls because it somehow empowers women, that's pretty much what this article is about.

ya, I think you might be projecting a bit, because that's not what I got out of the article.

[–]tenchineuro 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

ya, I think you might be projecting a bit, because that's not what I got out of the article.

So can you summarize?

Why is this empowering women shit even in an article about boys at all?

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Because the article is about the contrast between the progress made for girls against the progress made for boys. It's even in the article's title: "Why girls can be boyish but boys can't be girlish". If you're going to show how little progress has been made for boys ( her overriding concern, you'll note ), you have to show the progress that's been made for women. Otherwise, what are you contrasting?

My criticisms would fall along a different set of issues:

1) Gender identity nonsense. Identity crap drives me up the wall. It seems so ludicrous to identify as something you have no control over. "I'm black", "I'm white"...who fucking cares? If you must identify as something ( and you don't ), how about you identify as something meaningful that you control; "I identify as competent" or/and, "I identify as a good person".

I think the author is preoccupied to a detrimental level, but I think folks here also obsess over the nonsense ( as seen in comments on this very topic ).

2) Mom is a bit...sheltering. She comes off as a helicopter parent. Her son is heading to kindergarten soon, and he doesn't play in social groups which might expose him to the very peer pressure she's worried about? Too much bubble wrapping, not enough pushing out of the nest.

[–]tenchineuro 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Otherwise, what are you contrasting?

Feminists have never been able to do comparisons in the past, and female empowerment is still irrelevant.

Mom is a bit...sheltering. She comes off as a helicopter parent. Her son is heading to kindergarten soon, and he doesn't play in social groups which might expose him to the very peer pressure she's worried about?

The mom has worked hard for 5 years to create this condition. She's not worried about it. she deliberately caused it. Ultimately I expect her to write an article about how weak boys are, as so many of her feminist sisters have.

[–]ThePigmanAgain[S] 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Next time, try actually reading the article. It's another "blame the patriarchy" load of crap...

Girls have been told that they can do anything, be anything, and they largely can, without judgment. However -- and here's the catch -- that's true only if they are physically strong and career-oriented and eschew most of the traditional trappings of femininity. In short, they will gain respect if they act like boys. "It's about mobility. Girls who act like boys are moving up the social ladder. Boys who are acting like anything but masculine are moving down and risk losing their status," Kimmel said.

[–]fengpi 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

In short, they will gain respect if they act like boys.

Hold on, hold on-- I thought we were trying to break stereotypes and gender is just a social construct anyway?

Make up your fugging minds, idiots. If "boy-like behavior" is just a mirage, you can't act as if it is a real thing.

And what about boys who "don't act like boys"? Do they get a big heap of "male privilege" as well, or is "male privilege" oddly not given to all men on account of their penis-ownership?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Uh...how'd you manage to get patriarchy from that?

Are you doing the feminist thing about getting outraged from crap that isn't actually there?

[–]ThePigmanAgain[S] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Are you doing that thing where you act all retarded and then wonder why everyone thinks you're an idiot?

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

In order to be outraged, you have to add words to what was written.

You seem to be doing this innately. You are literally hallucinating in order to serve your internal narrative.

[–]ThePigmanAgain[S] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You are literally hallucinating...

LOL!

[–]Alzael 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

that's true only if they are physically strong and career-oriented and eschew most of the traditional trappings of femininity. In short, they will gain respect if they act like boys.

This is pretty much like watching a race and wondering why the fat guy with the chocolate cake in his mouth is trailing behind everyone else.

[–]fengpi 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

See, that's just how horribly patriarchal everything is. Everybody should cross the finish line at the same time and get a gold medal no matter how fast they run.

[–]adventurefoundme -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I just don't understand why men can't be masculine and stay like that and why women can't be feminine and stay like that. What's all this gender neutral stuff. It is only natural that we all masculine and women and feminine

[–]runner557 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

No one is saying they can't be. But what happens if you dont fit exactly into a gender role that society laid out for you?

In a perfect world, everything would be black and white and everyone would be happy and feel they belong with their gender they were born with and have a specific role. But that's not reality. You are going to have some girls who want to do masculine activities. And you'll have some boys who will want to do some feminine activities. The point of the article is that society is far more forgiving when women move out of their roles. But society is extremely harsh when men don't fulfill their role.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The point of the article is that society is far more forgiving when women move out of their roles. But society is extremely harsh when men don't fulfill their role.

This is very much a societal issue too, specific to our own. To a point there is a biological basis, but societies are complex enough that that only explains so much.

There are societies out there ( I only know of small societies, but I don't know much ) which accept traditionally female traits in males, just not ours.

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