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"Traditional feminism has failed African-American women. It's time for a new way to address our issues." - The rejection of feminism from the black female perspective.

whinemoreplease

August 11, 2015
22 upvotes
/r/MensRights
http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2013/07/how_feminism_failed_black_women_its_time_for_a_new_way_to_address_our_issues.html
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Title "Traditional feminism has failed African-American women. It's time for a new way to address our issues." - The rejection of feminism from the black female perspective.
Author

whinemoreplease

Upvotes 22
Comments 15
Date August 11, 2015 10:20 AM UTC
(10 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3gks2a/traditional_feminism_has_failed_africanamerican/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/traditional-feminism-has-failed-african-american.973550
https://theredarchive.com/post/973550
Red Pill terms in post
feminism
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Comments

[–]Stephen_Morgan 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Not an original idea. See Womanism.

[–]xNOM 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Same crap, different color.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (14 children) | Copy Link

What does this have to do with Men's Rights?

One of the things that's talked about pretty often is that feminism is a disingenuous movement. I figure that seeing this being addressed from the black female perspective not only reinforces this fact, but is also incredibly interesting.

#5. CBFT reunites men, women and children in the cypher of discourse regardless of power and status, gender, sexual preference, skin tone, marital status or age. It includes the voices of those characterized as "ratchet," "ghetto" and unable to speak for themselves under the weight of what Harvard sociologist William Julius Wilson calls "concentrated poverty." (pdf)

Often we forget about those operating in the trenches when we "escape" the trenches. In that respect, CBFT theorists argue against the use of one-dimensional voices that tend to speak on behalf of the greater community, which ultimately reinstates these unwarranted power dynamics among multiple narratives. In order for CBFT to function appropriately as a possible family- and community-building strategy, black men must be included from the outset. They, as well as every other stakeholder, don't have to fight to get in on the conversation when filtering ideas through the CBFT framework.

This point is incredibly salient. It focuses on the importance and benefits of a cohesive unit, instead of forcing an exclusionary divide.

Resisting from a new perspective provides a clearer view of the oppressor -- which, in the case of feminism, is often other feminists.

Heh.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Do you realize she's talking about intersectionality? AKA the thing that this board hates the most.

[–]OsoFeo 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

I don't have a problem with intersectionality unless it's used to grandstand and restrict focus to the needs of one subgroup over all others. One of the major problems with feminism is that it privileges the needs of white women over just about every other demographic, and the benefits of feminism that accrue to (almost exclusively) white women often extend to their spouses indirectly. Meanwhile, the burdens of feminism are borne by men-of-color more than white men, and these burdens extend to women-of-color as well.

I'm not trying to start a white=bad argument (far from it), but rather argue that the mainstream forms of feminism actually reinforce racism. Which is why women of color might have a problem with them.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

I 100% agree with you, and with criticisms of white feminism. This line

One of the major problems with feminism is that it privileges the needs of white women over just about every other demographic

is just absolutely spot on. But IMHO that is an issue that this board also very clearly has, and something I've brought up on more than one occasion. I wish the folks on this board would take a more intersectional approach to gender and masculinity. But it's something that this board is sorely, sorely lacking.

Anyway, I'm curious what you mean by "the burdens of feminism are borne by men-of-color." Could you explain that a bit more?

[–]OsoFeo 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Anyway, I'm curious what you mean by "the burdens of feminism are borne by men-of-color." Could you explain that a bit more?

This is more of a macroeconomic effect than one that occurs on an individual level. (I'm not saying that the "feelz" aren't important, but the most objective and therefore easy-to-discuss measure of inequality is economic.) As most veterans of this forum know, men may overwhelmingly occupy the highest positions of power, but we also occupy the lowest positions as well, taking on the lowest-paying, most dangerous jobs. But if you look at the racial breakdown of the upper and lower 20%, there is a huge disparity: positions of power in the US are occupied >99% by individuals of European decent, while most of the thankless jobs are done by Mexican-Americans or Mexican immigrants (while African-American men are practically unemployable). Feminists argue for affirmative action policies that facilitate the entry of "women and minorities" into positions of power, but the individuals most prepared to take advantage of these policies are almost always white women to the exclusion of men and women of color. So these policies actually reinforce the racial disparities in employment. The dynamics are far more complex than I've illustrated, related to international policy as well as multigenerational family dynamics (though some of the well-recognized problems that exist among African-American families are reinforced by the father-alienating policies of the family court system). Feminists would have us believe that the most pressing problem in our society is the inability of white women to become CEOs of major corporations, when in fact racial socioeconomic disparities represent a far greater injustice (although they also represent a problem that is far more difficult to solve).

You can see the same thing in the criminal justice system. Men fare worse than women, non-whites fare worse than whites, and (because intersectionality) men of color fare worst of all.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's a great point you make. I'll be honest, my question was genuine, but I was expecting to completely disagree with your answer (I'm not entirely sure what I was expecting tbqh.)

I was really struck by this line. I couldn't agree more.

but the individuals most prepared to take advantage of these policies are almost always white women to the exclusion of men and women of color.

The thing I would disagree with you on would be that I don't think this is an issue with feminism per se. It has more to do with racial dynamics and the way race and privilege operate in the US. But I think your point just goes to show just how damn important intersectionality is (as well as illustrating that white feminism is not capable of enacting any sort of meaningful or progressive change).

Great point, thanks for taking the time to type that up for me. n_n

[–]CountVonVague 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Soo what you're saying is that most of these issues end up being economic problems due to the passing of decades and the racial/cultural divides between socioeconomic classes? Honestly, in my opinion, this could all well be examined or solved if the U.S. diverted it's attention to eliminating poverty conditions. But most of the problems happen outside the U.S. so the Next body of authority a U.S. citizen might want to go to is the U.N. but they don't have much enforcement ability. :/ Next step is either doing things all yourself or figuring out how to tell other people to do those things without the governments stopping you.

[–]OsoFeo 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, the problems are complex and multifaceted. I think somebody could propose any number of solutions, each to address a specific aspect of a very general problem involving poverty, economic disparities, health disparities, etc. However, the central platform of mainstream feminism involves none of these, and instead focuses on a very narrow set of (potentially legitimate) problems whose solutions will benefit mostly white women, who are the most privileged class of people (except possibly upper class and therefore mostly-white men).

On a more individual/personal front, there's this, which suggests that nonwhite men are the most disadvantaged group in the dating market. So whatever gives more power to white women (the most advantaged group) in a relative sense most greatly diminishes the power of nonwhite men. I don't view dating/marriage as a competitive sport, so this again represents an oversimplification of a complex phenomenon. But it does illustrate how feminism helps only the demographic that needs the least help.

[–]CountVonVague 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Is that the same dataset that goes on to show that women on okcupid consider over 2/3s of the guys on that site to be undateable?

This whole "Womanism vs Feminism" debacle is really only the beginning of a greater shitstorm that'll take place once "white feminists" try to re-examine their positions before jumping aboard with the #handsupdontshoot crowd. I'm glad to see that Identity Politics is what will bring down the beast calling itself Feminism, there's just no room for that kind of base, exclusionary thinking anymore and the Progressives who try to bring it into the mainstream again are only going to be booed and shouted down by Liberals who hate being likened to Racists after growing up despising Racists.

I'm largely uninterested in "what group has more power" because that thinking is inherently bigoted, judging one person as if they are assuredly part of a whole, cohesive unit and vice-versa. Identity Politics quickly becomes the Oppression Olympics and it's all based around who SEEMS to be doing the best by POPULAR OPINION, i'll have none of it and may actively fight against inclusion of such methods in normal conversation.

The economic exploitation of underprivileged cultural groups has been going on for FAR longer than the indirect causes of today's #blacklivesmatter protests, but for Blacks who've been taught to identify their blackness as something to be defensive and protective over, communicating the fact that The Man has been fucking over whitey longer than darky comes across wrong.

[–]OsoFeo 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree that "oppression olympics" is inherently uninteresting and counterproductive. Nevertheless, the disparities are real. What you do with the information is another matter. Do you latch on to your particular intersectionality and cling to the identity, demanding more power for your group and your group only? Or do you see all of the different intersectionalities and realize that they all function together as different parts of a dysfunctional system? I am interested in disparities data because they inform the latter issue: we are all suffering from the same dysfunction. Even "privileged" white women are, although perhaps not in the ways they think they are.

The individual parts should not be mistaken for the whole, but the whole cannot be understood without reference to the parts. An arch is greater than the bricks that comprise it, but without the bricks there is no arch.

[–]CountVonVague 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Certainly, yes, examining both the trees for the forest and the forest for the trees as well as the contrasts between is pretty much standard high-school philosophy as far as im concerned. But "Intersectionalism" in the politicized sense of the word is an identity-infused bastardization of comprehensive compassion, and all forms of Intersectionalism employed will by nature bring out it's equal and opposite force against the employer. Attempting to bring just about Every human issue into the socio-political legal court of public opinion will obviously have every possible imaginable consequence, so those pushing the Intersectionality angle need to watch out and be dead-accurate at every angle.

[–]rottingchrist 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

One of the things that's talked about pretty often is that feminism is a disingenuous movement. I figure that seeing this being addressed from the black female perspective not only reinforces this fact, but is also incredibly interesting.

Our reasons for considering it disingenuous are different from those of their splinter group. So yeah, this doesn't have anything to do with men's rights and doesn't belong here.

[–]augustfell 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

understanding the opponents and/or potential allies of MRM is relevant to MRM. At the very least, feminists of color might provide us with some ammunition useable against the majority of feminists.

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