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"MGTOW - End of Civilisation"

jamminnummeruno

June 30, 2015

24 upvotes

/r/MensRights

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4GQV2HkGmY&index=19&list=WL

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Post Information

Title	"MGTOW - End of Civilisation"
Author	jamminnummeruno
Upvotes	24
Comments	7
Date	June 30, 2015 8:06 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3bo6mv/mgtow_end_of_civilisation/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/mgtow-end-of-civilisation.976412 https://theredarchive.com/post/976412

Comments

[–]chocoboat 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]thedarkerside 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]chocoboat 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Have you ever had depression or interacted with someone who does? You'd be surprised how many "basic things" go by the way side.

I definitely understand this. I'm aware of the "herbivore men" situation in Japan and the similar people in other countries - men who just stop seeing relationships as worth the effort, and live for themselves.

I'm just saying that when the mice died out, they didn't know any better. They were so used to not caring about sex that they just still didn't care when the population fell and sex was available to them. But mice have no concept of the future, and people do. People would recognize that letting the entire population die off is a bad idea... even the anti-social men with little interest in sex.

All I'm saying it that assuming that humans would act exactly like non-intelligent life is not reasonable.

[–]thedarkerside 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I am sure you could will yourself to have sex occasionally "for the team" but as a survival strategy that's not very sound.

I think you also overestimate the ability by people to look ahead. Yes, people do have a sense of the future and planning accordingly. But it is their future, not that of the species.

If we would care about the future of the species we would have made many changes by know, better resource management, better environmental stewardship etc.

Instead, we are hedonists, looking for "our fill" and our immediate future.

What makes you think we will act any different when it comes to the "die off" of the species?

To be clear, I don't think his timeline is right. He's way too aggressive on it. A thousand years or so could see our end, but more likely we'll shrink back to a few hundred million people on this rock. Presuming we don't destroy the eco system first.

[–]chocoboat 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I am sure you could will yourself to have sex occasionally "for the team" but as a survival strategy that's not very sound.

I think people would get used to it. We're assuming some worldwide disaster anyway, people would be getting used to a lot of new situations.

I think you also overestimate the ability by people to look ahead. Yes, people do have a sense of the future and planning accordingly. But it is their future, not that of the species.

Oh of course, people suck a looking ahead and planning for the distant future. But people are pretty good at recognizing not-so-distant disaster and doing all they can to avoid it.

What makes you think we will act any different when it comes to the "die off" of the species?

If overpopulation starts to get that bad, one child policies will be enacted, among other things. Maybe we'd pay people to get sterilized and try to manage something of a controlled landing of a population decrease, as opposed to a plane crash.

I don't think any of this is likely to happen. The real world scenario is pretty different. The mice were in a confined space, breeding until nearly all available space was filled with their bodies. This wouldn't be possible for humans... there's a lot of space out there, and the maximum population would be limited by food and water, not room for human bodies. And population control will become popular once things start to get ugly, we wouldn't just keep breeding endlessly by instinct.

Also, if there were some crash, not all of the people would have mentally become non-breeders.

I think the mice experiment is good for showing some similarities (how people lose interest in certain things when there's overcrowding), but non-intelligent life in a fairly small area is simply not the same situation as intelligent life in a vast area.

Also, that video misattributes certain things to high population. Men aren't losing interest in sex and relationships because it's crowded (as the mice did). I think a lot of the self-isolating men out there would be happy to have a wife and children if it was dropped into their lap without much effort on their part.

The change is instead due to pornography, and changes in social values. To have sex and relationships, you have to be successful and work hard and make money etc... and there's not as much in it for men as there used to be. Divorce rates are higher, dating's expensive, children are expensive... and with widespread easy access to all kinds of porn that costs nothing and comes with no responsibilities, that starts to look like a "good enough" substitute for some men.

They want easy, cheap, and simple instead of the real thing. But I don't think the population level isn't a primary factor in this. Maybe a small factor though... for instance, in small towns where people know almost everyone they see, everyone tends to be far more social than someone living in a big city full of a million faces you don't know.

[–]thedarkerside 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

But people are pretty good at recognizing not-so-distant disaster and doing all they can to avoid it.

That's okay if the disaster doesn't have a long tail, but things like a population implosion and many other problems do. By the time we recognize the problem and make changes it's already too late.

Climate change comes to mind. Even if we would end our carbon emissions tomorrow the long tail will continue for decades if not centuries, and we're talking that level of disaster when we look at the population.

If overpopulation starts to get that bad, one child policies will be enacted, among other things.

I doubt it. Not as long as the West likes to think of itself as a "free and open democracy" and the Chinese dropped their one child policy a few years ago, good luck implementing one in a place like India. That's not a viable option outside of mass sterilization of large groups of the population and then you have a whole pile of ethical problems on your hands.

And population control will become popular once things start to get ugly, we wouldn't just keep breeding endlessly by instinct.

I think we are seeing the entire opposite happening, that people actually breed less and we're going the opposite way. I also don't think it was purely the overpopulation that killed off the mice and other animals he tried it with, or at least not by itself.

If you have entire generations that have no real purpose in life, why would they want to continue breeding? That's what I see with MGTOWs, they see no future for themselves or their offspring. How real / realistic it is we can debate, but I doubt they will suddenly jolt back into "procreation mode".

I think a lot of the self-isolating men out there would be happy to have a wife and children if it was dropped into their lap without much effort on their part.

Not my experience from what I have observed with MGTOWs, for most of them it seems the cost / benefit balance doesn't work out. It's not that they are shy of working for it, but, long term thinking here, they don't see this as a happy outcome. As I pointed out to someone else in a discussion recently: Most guys don't mind paying for their offspring, but they at least want to be sure it's theirs and they want to be involved in the child's offspring. There is a clear society stream that paints men as only being in it for sex and not caring about anything but.

I think that's way more behind guys "checking out" than anything else.

They want easy, cheap, and simple instead of the real thing.

I think you're way oversimplifying here. Yep, they find a substitute because the "real thing" does no longer seem to be around. If you have 30 years of messaging that men are essentially losers, that they are horrible just by the virtue of being men and that women in general are victims of male behaviour, it isn't really surprising that guys look at this and say: "No thanks."

This has nothing to do with being "lazy" or "not working for it" and everything to do with people choosing not to get involved with a group that seems to hold them in disdain.

Especially here this should be pretty clear how lopsided things have become. I think in general men are splitting into three groups.

Red Pillers --> They game the system for their own gain in a variety of ways.
MRA's --> Who see the system as broken and want to fix it.
MGTOW's --> Who decide that's not a fight they want and find other ways to be happy.

How big each of these groups becomes remains to be seen. I think men are much less likely to suddenly turn gay for sexual gratification, but technology seems to fill in that gap. From free internet porn to (soon) 3D immersion alternatives are quickly becoming available.

I am not sure how you think you can convince these people to "pull back" and try to reform society, I doubt any RPer is going to turn into a full fledged MRA nor do I think an MGTOW will, they made choices and odds are good they're not "coming back".

[–]Senray 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link