How do I dismantle the "All of men's problems are caused by misogyny" argument?

kizzan · 2014-10-28T15:07:50+00:00

If a system hates both men and women, you cannot call it misogyny. That would be like calling rain "dry matter". If you choose to call it that, you would be incorrect.

I don't agree with what that person is saying, but if they want to make that argument, they have to change the word misogyny into something else. I don't know, hatred?

dejour · 2014-10-28T16:43:11+00:00

The posted viewpoint doesn't make sense when we think about the ways that women are shamed.

Yes, men are shamed for being womanly.

But, women are shamed for being manly.

If we say that a woman has "man-hands", a "man's haircut", too many muscles, a flat chest, too hairy, we are insulting her. Do women see it as a compliment to be called "manly"? If we tell a woman she dresses like a man, or parents like a man?

A better explanation than misogyny is that we have societal gender expectations. If we deviate from them, society punishes us. That hurts men and women, and it doesn't mean that misogyny (or misandry) is the root cause of it all.

Another tactic is to look at what psychology finds. Specifically the "women are wonderful effect".

Psychologists have tried to measure how much people like different groups. People like whites more than blacks, straights more than gays, cis more than trans*, whites more than First Nations/Native Americans, able more than disabled, young more than old, native-speakers more than immigrants. About what you would expect. Marginalized groups are liked less. But they find that people like women more than men. To me that shoots a huge hole through the idea that there is pervasive misogyny that explains everything.

The women are wonderful effect has been found consistently and has been found to occur both through explicit and implicit tests.

Explicit would be asking several explicit questions like "Who do you trust more? Men or women". Implicit would be attempting to measure your subconscious thoughts through reaction times.

One way implicit thoughts are measured is by telling people to press one key (eg. "A") when they see a good word (eg. "smile") on the screen and another ("L") when they see a bad word ("vomit").

Then they ask people to press "A" whenever you see a good word or an image of a woman. And "L" whenever you see a bad word or a man.

Then they ask people to press "A" whenever you see a good word or a man. And "L" whenever you see a bad word or a woman.

For half the people those last two tasks are reversed.

What they usually find is that women is easily associated with positive words and man is easily associated with negative words.

So when you have to press "A" for woman or good words, people are accurate and quick. The combination makes sense to people. When you have to press "A" for man or good words, people are inaccurate and slow. The combination trips people up because they two categories aren't linked. The bigger the difference in speed between the two trials, the more biased you are.

ShitlordAndProud · 2014-10-28T16:03:31+00:00

Accept it, then invite them to join the MRM to fight misogyny.

There's really no problem here.

DavidByron2 · 2014-10-28T16:52:21+00:00

It's literally blaming the victim.

aesopstortoise · 2014-10-28T20:50:06+00:00

How is male circumcision caused by misogyny?

How is selective service caused by misogyny?

How are workplace deaths caused by misogyny?

How are family courts a product of misogyny?

How is boy's under performance in education caused by misogyny?

How are false rape allegations and lack of due process caused by misogyny?

Sometimes it's better to leave stupid people to get on with it, or perhaps be really blunt and tell them, rather than create the illusion that they are saying anything worth engaging with.

ZimbaZumba · 2014-10-29T04:14:11+00:00

If someone makes an assertion it is for them to prove it, not for you to disprove it. Unless your opponent is entirely complaint, in casual discussion it is actually quite hard to prove any point to even a moderate level of certainty.

Note on informal argument:- When discussing issues it is to your advantage to put the burden of proof on your opponent. Always be vigilant for burden of proof switching, which a skilled debater will often try.

waves_of_ignerence · 2014-10-29T02:59:18+00:00

"If misogyny existed then you might have a point".

The end.

Title	How do I dismantle the "All of men's problems are caused by misogyny" argument?
Author	ashitagaarusa
Upvotes	2
Comments	12
Date	October 28, 2014 3:00 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2kknpk/how_do_i_dismantle_the_all_of_mens_problems_are/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/how-do-i-dismantle-the-all-of-mens-problems-are.994171 https://theredarchive.com/post/994171

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