Please lets debate rationally

KelinciHutan · 2017-10-02T10:30:29+00:00

You have made it impossible for anyone to present you with a rational argument you will believe.

I completely agree with mgtow philosophy because its logical and makes sense, not because i want to hate someone.

With statement, you elevate your own experience as the only possible true and accurate one. Anyone who has different experiences, you have now given yourself permission to dismiss as either an outlier or illogical/irrational and incapable of understanding “The Truth.” You ensure here that no logical argument can reach you.

I think there is no need for "sources" or scientific evidence to the self evident claims of mgtow and trp. Science is very recent, things change, and if you just follow "sources" you dont arrive at any conclusions.

With this statement, you can deny any scientific or psychological evidence against TRP/MGTOW philosophy as dismissable if you do not like the conclusion. You ensure here that no biological argument can reach you.

The simple fact of the matter is that it is utterly unbelievable to claim the logical position is the one that purports to have a way to lump ~3.5 billion humans together such that all their behaviors, desires, and abilities can be predicted. But you have decided your own, individual frame of reference must be the same as everyone’s, whether they know it or not, and this has let you justify, among other things, cheating on your girlfriends. No matter how much you think it makes you a better boyfriend, the very fact that you cheated means you were a bad one. Nor does the disclaimer “except for the cheating part” save you from that.

Frankly, given that you spent your opening paragraph making sure you could dismiss any argument presented to you, I don’t think you can be helped. To borrow a quote from CS Lewis, “You are so determined not be taken in that now, you cannot be taken out.”

Rainai · 2017-10-02T21:50:31+00:00

I read your post replies and I don't think anything I'd say will matter.

I can say that my own experience is vastly different than yours. That my friends and family all have happy relationships, mostly with their high school sweethearts. And the relationships are also far simpler than internet makes it out to be.

Both, the man and the woman, are just trying their best and giving their 100% for each other.

My boyfriend is a physically disabled man. Meanwhile, I am working in engineering, surrounded by rich, successful and able bodied men. I could have looked for a so-called greener pasture anytime I want to, but I don't and never will, because when I've found the man I love, other men simply stop being men for me. This is not a rare view among my circle.

Reading that you asked your GF to break up after you got injured because you are afraid that she'd leave you at some point, well...I don't know what to say.

If you truly find happiness and peace in following MGTOW, then more power to you. You are not the first man to want to live his life without a woman. Since the dawn of time, there has been individuals who are happy in being on their own. MGTOW is not a new concept. Men and Women have gone their own ways in the past.

starspider · 2017-10-02T22:40:02+00:00

I'm going to address something here:

Maybe you just have shitty taste in women? Don't get me wrong, surely you choose ones who you are attracted to, but clearly they have other problems if they crave the attention of an emotionally abusive habitual cheater. I know girls like that. They thrive on the dramadramadramadrama that a cheater brings. They are not healthy.

Look, having a hard time recognizing that women as a whole are as smart and tough pound for pound as any man and in their personal lives occasionally like being treated like princesses indicates to me that you have a hard time seeing complexity in people. Everyone likes to be treated like they're special. Its why we go out to eat and spas exist.

kellyanonymous · 2017-10-02T04:04:51+00:00

You said that TRP makes sense to you and is logical. That's because it's a very simplistic view of human behaviour, which is why people like it and follow it. They can understand it.

I think the fact that you can observe it and read about it in history and biology is the key point there. There are whole disciplines that focus on human behaviour, as individuals, groups, cultures, society etc. They are psychology, sociology and anthropology. You didn't mention those. This is likely why you follow TRP. You would need 6 years to study one of the above to begin to grasp it and even then, to begin to be involved in research and findings, likely more years. So that fact that you don't understand it, You shouldn't feel bad about, which could be the motivation to try to find non reputable sources to understand it.

These displines recognise that humans are complex creatures and societies are complex structures that influence people and groups in multi faceted ways - through religion, culture, law, institutions etc.

They conduct research on this. The research cannot reach a journal without such a rigorous process. They don't just observe, do some statistics and make a conclusion from them.

I think you have grasped onto a manual that fits into your experience and understanding of the world. It doesn't mean that aspects of what you mention are irrelevant and what you have experienced and observed is irrelevant. It doesn't mean that there isn't a biological aspect in human behaviour that is repeated throughout history. However, it is just much more complex than that.

What sources are you referring to that say women are equal to men? Even that is quite a black and white way to understand evidence and sources.

I think you are confusing different views you have come across, maybe many which aren't backed by evidence. No reputable source would state that men and women are equal. The explanation is just far too simplistic and I don't actually understand what you mean by men and women being equal. Do you mean treated equally, have equal access to resources? If you mean that they have the same personality and qualities equally, such as strength (which I'm assuming you mean because of other aspects of your argument) then of course this isn't the case. Again, most science agrees that men and women are different. Physically and mentally. The argument lies when debating how much is biological in nature and how much is due to socialization.

Neuroscience is another discipline you can explore. They explain the complexities of the brain and the effects of environment on brain structure. It can maybe shed some light on how even though we have a biological nature, we are also very impacted by experiences.

I think maybe you are lumping different types sources and evidence into the same validity box. You're confusing science backed evidence and perspectives of internet groups that forms and are backed by power of technology and being as loud as they can.

It would take forever to go through each of your statements but if you go through one at a time, I am happy to debate it

2017-10-02T21:46:38+00:00

I was conditioned to act in such a way because of how they are in their nature

Stopped reading right there, come back when you're done spouting bullshit bio-truths

sneakpeekbot · 2017-10-02T17:33:29+00:00

You respond to things in interesting ways so I decided to take a dive:

I learned with my first girlfriend that if I mistreated her she was good and docile, if I didnt mistreat her she was the one starting problems. To the point I got addicted being abusive after she abused me and made horrible shit for a year. And then it was like my reality I just abuse her and dominate, abuse her and dominate her, unknowingly inside that I hated myself and didnt want none of that for me. I literally turned into a taliban. But I got some balls and left.

This left me a scar where I feared fights and relationships because I was afraid my harsh and dominant nature would come back out of control. So I was going my own way. Only having women for sex and avoiding seeing them for more than that (mgtow didnt exist in those days yet). My next girlfriend I remember I didnt want to mistreat her in any way, so the same happened she started testing and creating problems. So I broke up with her. I was devastated, because I didnt understand what could I do.

The next one. I left her immediately when I saw a red flag. But guess what that made her come to me totally different, so this one became my best girlfriend ever. But I was already entangled on these questions, and without a guiding mgtow hand, I was very confused. So I decided to just be bad to her to keep her dominated at any hint of trouble from her. I became paranoid, I would attack her for reasons that only existed in my head. She stayed around for years. I could cheat on her she wouldnt leave me, I could be an asshole to her, she would forgive me right after. And she was an amazing girlfriend (although I hate to admit and to remember how awful I was). In dealing with the devil I became the devil myself. Being mean and reckless, its horrible to say...but its true it kept her liking me everytime more. And she couldnt leave me. Why...Why they dont accept me as a good man, why do I have to be terrible...I thought...So there were no limits...I was just arbitrary. So I became something like the bipolar Fight Club guy. Where sometimes I was myself...a good man that cares about her. And then suddenly I would flip and become something like negan, extremelly cruel and sadistic. She cried hundreds of times.

I was having health issues too (apart this psychological mess) and my guts told me no woman will be loyal to a sick man for long. In the middle of some fights I started yelling her to fight me back. And asking her... Why was she with me if I was so bad...Why can't she just select a good man like many out there. I hated her. I hated what I was...but I hated her nature that nature of loving the devil I was. And that I needed to be the devil, because the moment I became good I knew everything was doomed. In last experimental effort to understand true women nature. I tried becoming more calm. I started avoiding fights and avoiding her when I was angry. Spontaneously I changed my behavior to see what she would do. It was fake, but I wanted to see her reaction, and I didnt have anything to lose because I wanted to end it. I made her break up with me. Several times I said lets just break up. And after many times and many months and after one of my terrible deeds she finally did it.

I thought it would be very hard to overcome this break up. It wasn't. Because I didnt put much effort to the relationship, and it was always my way from the beggining to the end...total submission from her in everything. Again that mix of remorse and at the same time feeling like I was right I have no choice its women who want me to be like that. I moved on...And discovered mgtow. And the same thing is happening. I met a girl. I liked her. Tried being good to her. She started giving me attitude so I became Negan again and she is all over me. So thats it women are masochists, and if we want them happy we need to mistreat them at least a bit, or else they will give you problems or they will mistreat you. So for this one I already had to "go out my way" to make treat her like shit. The pressure to go my own way is at everytime high because Im no longer young and I feel like I can be trapped.

This all sounds very sad, honestly. Do you want to talk about this? Do you still feel this way or has anything changed since you wrote this?

NalkaNalka · 2017-10-02T15:01:02+00:00

ITT: asking for a "rational debate" then making arguments consisting of a series of bumper sticker slogans cobbled together.

2017-10-02T11:27:18+00:00

This is not a debate sub. Take it somewhere else.

kellyanonymous · 2017-10-03T01:35:14+00:00

Question. Do you feel your theory can be tested when viewing various issues in the world, cross culturally, or is it specific to the western world? And if so, can we give you different issues, scenarios etc and you can explain it through your theory?

absolutebeginners · 2017-10-02T13:02:22+00:00

More than happy to engage in a source-less, reference-less debate.

I did things to women that i'm not particularly proud of, but feel as if I was conditioned to act in such a way because of how they are in their nature

Dunno. Seems like the sort of self-rationalization that abusers make. I've done things that are shitty, too. But when I'm aware that my behavior is not up to my own standards, I try to make amends and become a better person. Rather than find ways to blame my victims.

The sources now claim women are equal to men

TIL science says I can menstruate and become pregnant.

I tell you what is wrong, it is wrong to make men believe that women are angelical creatures that have the same protective and loyal nature of men (again in general).

Your strawman is on fire. Nobody can claim both men and women are equal and then also claim that women are angels. The idea that women are angelic trophies to be won comes from patriarchy. It's pretty stupid of you to allow these sorts of fundamentally flawed arguments by waiving off inconsistencies because you assume women are illogical. Better explanation: you don't know what you're talking about. Remedy: learn something and don't be stupid.

Can women become non-hypergamous? Yes they can, but again its oppressive to their own nature, just like monogamy is to men, but at least men adapted to do fine with it

Isn't saying that men are "non-monogamous" and that women are "hypergamous" saying exactly the same thing?

absolutebeginners · 2017-10-02T15:55:25+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	Please lets debate rationally
Author	ZCnegan
Upvotes	0
Comments	86
Date	October 2, 2017 3:02 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/73qa3k/please_lets_debate_rationally/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/please-lets-debate-rationally.300178 https://theredarchive.com/post/300178

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