Are you a feminist? | MensRights

[–]rykocolor6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spektralmia-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]rykocolor1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spektralmia-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]rykocolor2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]PierceHarlan5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]EvilPundit5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spektralmia-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]EvilPundit1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spektralmia-4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So, until about 1950, in most parts of the world, women didn't even have enough power to cause most of the bad things in the world. This doesn't mean that men did bad things like start wars, commit genocide, etc because men suck, but by default the people perpetrating atrocities were men. What feminism says is that we haven't yet reached equality and that women bear the majority of the inequality. We also, however, are big on not viewing men's or women's natural state as rapists, which is why the "don't rape" campaigns exist. We think everyone is perfectly capable of not raping other people. Now, maybe feminism doesn't pay enough attention to men's rape. The lack of attention paid to men being raped in prison, gay men being raped, and men being raped by lack of consent is a problem. It's a big problem. But central feminism- not radfem, who are a bunch of shit heads, not 70's extremists, etc- doesn't approve of or belittle men being raped. We should be doing more, I agree.

Actually, no. The most influential issues in feminism are our right to equal work for equal pay, which doesn't mean men get paid less, our right to birth control, sexual health services and abortions, which don't have to infringe on men's rights, and our work with countries where women don't have access to education, get acid thrown in their face for wearing the wrong thing, etc.

And no. I wasn't downplaying false rape accusations. They happen. But unreported rapes happen much, much more often. Both are huge problems. Feminism does not, ever, EVER support lying about rape. But we don't support people raping people because they don't understand the definition of rape, either.

[–]EvilPundit2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spektralmia-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]EvilPundit3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]rykocolor1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Women have equal work for equal pay, surely you have seen the CONSAD report, funded by the US gov't and widely accepted academically the destroys the myth that women make less due to discrimination. Surely you have read that NOW has actively campaigned against research into domestic violence perpetrated by females against males. Surely you know that NOW has actively discouraged male specific domestic violence shelters. Surely you realize that abortions, despite what women want, are a huge moral and ethical issue about when a human is a human, and no amount of screaming "MISOGYNISTS" changes that. Surely you realize that telling the average man not to rape is like telling the average chimp not eat his mothers.

Surely...surely you have actually researched these things, and come to the conclusion that feminism is good based on actual evidence and acts, rather than just being told over and over your entire life it's good...surely? I must say I doubt it, as here in mensrights we tend to source things excellently (I have not here because all of it is plainly available evidence on google as well as nearly any thread in the subreddit)

Seriously - try it! Try telling yourself "I have no idea if feminism or mensrights is good and right - I will objectively read and research with the goal of finding which group has perpetuated discrimination, hate, oppression olympics, blaming, etc. and of finding which group is trying to fight against injustices"

[–]spektralmia-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I need some time to look over these resources, but thank you for providing them. The one part of this that I will respond to, because it's not an issue of research, is the issue of abortion. It's an incredibly difficult choice to make, absolutely. Because the promise or potential of a child is just as meaningful to many people as a child. But it comes down to a question of rights. The vast, vast, vast, vast majority of pregnancies that are ended NOT for health reasons are ended within the first two trimesters. At this point, the fetus isn't viable outside of the mother's body. So it becomes a question of who has more rights- an unborn fetus or the mother, who is alive, is an adult, is a human being. If you force someone to carry to term a fetus they don't want inside them, for any reason, you're prioritizing the rights of the fetus over the rights of the mother. This is wrong.

[–]rykocolor1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

On abortion I actually agree with you, personally. However, when people act like there is a 'war on women' because some people want to talk about it is ridiculous. It isn't about women's rights, it's about the philosophical, moral, and ethical question of when we consider a fetus a human being, and despite what women think - just because they carry the fetus for 9 months doesn't entitle them to a monopoly on this extremely important question.

Personally, for me, once it has brain waves I would consider it a human. I believe that is either mid second trimester, or early third. Before that I don't give two shits. On abortion though, you really should consider then responsibilities and choices. If a woman can terminate her pregnancy without any real financial repercussions except for the cost of the operation (if that, depending on where you live) - then why are men who are in the same situation of unpreparedness for fatherhood forced to become fathers, at least financially speaking, on the whim of the woman. Her body, her choice, her responsibility is my opinion.

Girl doesn't want it --> abortion, no real financial issues

Man doesn't want it --> hooked for child support for 18 years

How is that fair? Oh, that's right. It isn't.

[–]spektralmia1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Actually, carrying it does entitle them to that choice. You cannot force someone to keep anything in their body they don't want to have there.

I resent you calling a woman deciding to keep a child the "whim" of the woman. It's a difficult situation, but when she decides to keep the child, she's deciding that for eighteen years of her life, she's going to put another person's needs ahead of her own, every day. It's about a whole lot more than money. Now, I believe it's unfortunate when a child is born without two parents who want to be parents. That should have been a joint decision. But before the child is born, I believe that because the fetus is in the mother's body, it's her right to decide what happens to it. But after the child is born, the child becomes the most important thing. Having enough money for the child's well-being is the most important thing. Now, these cases of men being forced to pay for child support of a kid that isn't biologically theirs are crap. But in my mind, fairness pales in the face of the needs of a child. Men need to wear condoms if they want peace of mind, just as women need to control their own birth control if they want peace of mind.

[–]rykocolor1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The choice is a woman's within certain bounds - if we as a society decide that at the second trimester it is considered a human, with it's own inalienable rights, then a woman does not get to decide to terminate it. She can, of course, decide to terminate before, and it is her choice, and I agree no one could force her into a decision otherwise if it is before we consider the fetus a human. It is when we consider a fetus a human, that question, that women don't get to decide without any input from anyone else.

In a world where sex is mainly used as a tool for pleasure and not reproduction, sex no longer exists as an agreement for parentage. The woman can get out of this if she becomes pregnant - she can kill the fetus (which is certainly not in the best interest of the fetus), she adopt, she can utilize legal maternal surrender, etc. The man cannot. The female CAN relinquish her financial obligations without repercussion even after the child is born. A male can do no such thing. This is not fair, and the best interests of the child are not being met on the female side of this as well as the male side. Please, get away from the ideological immediate ingrained response, and think for a second. Think about it, try a little empathy for men. Do some more research.

[–]spektralmia1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]rykocolor1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spektralmia1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]rykocolor1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spektralmia1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]rykocolor1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I really have no idea how often you read this subreddit, because it cannot be often - virtually every person on here believes abortion and contraceptives should be readily available up to a point (that is, abortion cannot occur after the fetus is legally considered a human and has rights of its own - but that is a different discussion). I use the word whim because the male has virtually no say whatsoever on anything about it. It is at her whim, and simply because you believe that women don't make these decisions lightly doesn't make it true. I am not saying that 'the choice to have a child is whimsical', rather I am saying that men in this area are 'at the whimsy of choices made by women', perhaps mercy would suit you better, but as I am german and speak british english I will use whimsy - but this is really besides the point.

So if we can agree that abortions should be easily attainable up to a certain point (for me, again, that is brain waves around the end of the second trimester - at this point I would personally consider it a human with it's own rights) - if we can agree to that, then can we agree that women need to take responsibility for the choice of having a child. I think a great idea is something put forward by girlwriteswhat on youtube - an opt-in document - men must sign this form before child birth, and it states an intent to help raise the child both financially and physically. The reason for an opt-in instead of an opt-out is that it will ensure men are told of the pregnancy, and women don't wait until after the opt-out period, thus hooking him when he might have no knowledge whatsoever of her being pregnant. I also think that paternity tests should be required at birth to accurately represent who the father is - not just for the fathers sake, but for medical history should the child have issues later on. So...men should have an opt-in document, after which if a divorce occurs then child-support is reasonable, as long as the amount is reasonable, adjusts with pay, and the courts in the USA start coming from a neutral standpoint as to which parent should get custody (not sure if you know, but under the common law system of the US courts are required, by way of precedent, to favor the mother over the father regardless of the situation and before they have any information)

[–]spektralmia1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I didn't ask about belief. I know you're pretty much all pro-choice. I asked about effort. Volunteering, canvassing for pro-choice candidates, donations, whatever. It makes no sense to attempt to live in a myth of readily available abortions. If you as a movement are going to center arguments and demands for equality around readily available abortion as fact, I want to see the legwork to make it readily available. Because it's not now.

I think an opt-in document would make a lot of sense were abortion made readily available, although I have no idea what kind of provisions would be made for rape victims who become pregnant as a result of rape. Rapists- rapists convicted by a jury of their peers, I mean- shouldn't be able to be fathers (or mothers, although that's a little more difficult to prevent as the kid's already in her body). Same goes for men who abuse their partners (see parentheses- abusive women shouldn't be mothers either, but if the child is already in her body it's difficult to follow through on this point short of child services, which will only step in if she abuses the child). The other problem is religious women or women morally opposed to abortion who wouldn't get one. I'm worried in this case about the kid who might end up being born without the resources to support a comfortable life. You can say it's the mother's fault for not thinking ahead, but that blame doesn't help the kid. How do you provide for them in this circumstance?

[–]rykocolor1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

As to your first paragraph - please remember not everyone lives in America - Abortions in Germany and most of Europe are easily and readily accessible and often free. But your conflating two issues, and basically saying that unless we gain X, it is pointless to talk about Y, which is simply not true. Also, you often see protests and demonstrations by feminists that include men, rarely do you see feminists protesting or demonstrating for mensrights. Personally, I feel that women already have equal rights and even preferential treatment in a few areas: 1 -women have an inalienable right to vote in the US while men have a conditional right based upon signing up for the selective service/draft, and 2 -female genital mutilation of any kind is against the law (as it should be), this includes the exact anatomical equivalent of male circumcision which is the removal of the clitoral hood, while boys are still regularly cut using reasons such as health (which has been thoroughly debunked), attractiveness (same argument used in the ME to justify fgm), and appeal to popularity (at least in the US) - so how can we start talking about cultural rights, and ethical/moral questions like when a fetus becomes a human, when we cannot even agree that men deserve the same protections as women?

I agree that rapists shouldn't be parents, though when it comes to abuse I tend to think that with treatment, abusive partners can and do change, so that becomes a difficult issue.

As for a religious, or morally opposed to abortion person: that is still a choice you are making - and we have many avenues for women to relinquish parental and financial responsibility already, along with ways to pay for and manage these children (not perfect certainly, but it works without violating the rights of the mother or the child - only fathers are being walked all over currently)

[–]spektralmia1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's fine, but I'm asking you not to generalize. There are places where abortion is available. There are more places where it isn't, at least not readily. And the measures you suggest only work if abortion is readily available, so we really can't talk about putting them into place until that baseline is met. There are plenty of men at feminist demonstration, but not men's rights activists. Not people on this subreddit. You ignore the demands of feminism, unallied mainstream culture ignores the demands of feminism, everyone except feminists ignores the demands of feminism. And yes, women do have preferential treatment in those areas. However, even in the best of circumstances, we live in a culture where we're told every day we're not enough, and in the worst of circumstances, we're beaten, raped, killed, and treated as property. Men are too. But I will never agree that women have functionally equal rights to men in this country. On paper, maybe.

I will also not ever agree that we should assume abusive partners can change. Some do, but that's not a circumstance where it should be demanded that we give someone the benefit of the doubt.

Germany and Europe might have the ways to manage for the children, but America's welfare program is shot to shit and getting cut further every day, so, no, universally we don't have those avenues you like to imagine.

[–]rykocolor1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

We have to differentiate between cultural equality and legal/rights equality. In the US, and in the west in general, men and women have almost cultural and legal equality - except in those two, very important areas I pointed out. Cultural equality is not something that can be legislated and forced upon society, as it is outside the realm of legal rights. I doubt cultural equality will ever really happen - some men will continue to only use women for sex and nothing else, and some women will only use men as disposable muscles to help them when they need. Barbies and fashion magazines will always put unrealistic expectations on at least some portion of females, as will action movies and GI.JOES for some portion of men and boys. I also fail to see your point of women being beaten, raped, killed, and treated as property - because around the world, in every country, men are the primary victims of violence far and away. Domestic violence rates in the west are at near parity (something like 42-58). And technically, in the US men are raped more often then men because of the massive prison industrial complex you have. The reason you don't see mensrights activists at feminist rallies is simple: we don't believe feminists are fighting for equality, but instead the preferential treatment of women. In this subreddit, and on mensrights forums and videos, etc etc etc, we are fighting for equality, for egalitarianism. Why would I go to a feminist rally, where most of them are perfectly fine with letting a doctor cut my penis when I am born, when they are ok with me being forced into war against my will while they are not? - tell me, why would I go try to help a group of people who believe, through patriarchy theory, that all men everywhere are oppressing women no matter what happens. Feminism is not about equality - it's about the preferential treatment of women at this point.

I also didn't say we 'assume' abusive partners can change - only that we give them the opportunity to do so while under medical care. Are you for some reason against rehabilitation?

Their are over 800 abortion clinics in the US - most are freestanding. That means there an average of 16 clinics per state. I'm sorry, but what does readily available mean to you? You seem to be operating under some false pretense, likely caused by the absolutely horrible entertainment that is the news in the US, which is reactionary and about spectacle not reality. Even if there were only 50 abortion clinics in the US, 1 per state, I think that would be considered readily available for 95% of Americans.

[–]spektralmia1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I disagree. Cultural equality can't be forced on anyone, but it can be cultured through legislation, through policy changes so that rape kits are tested more frequently, so that rapists can't sue for child custody, so that school curricula don't relegate the majority of famous women to a single month, etc. And men are the victims of violence frequently, sure, but it's not because they're men. Women are systematically raped as a war tactic in the Congo. Women have their genitals sewn shut--not circumcised, sewn shut. Women can be murdered for being raped in honor killings. I also think it's impossible to say that men are raped MORE often than women. The amount that goes unreported for both genders is horrific. And it's the same reason why we don't go to rallies for a movement that generalizes our entire gender as playing the victim, as spoiled, as whining about non-existent issues, as being put on this planet to antagonize them. Besides, the draft is only there in case of great need, it's not in use now. And plenty of feminists support women being able to be drafted. The idea that we can't be expected to contribute to a war is just as misogynist as the idea that men should have to is misandrist.

I'm all for rehab. Your original wording made it sound as if you thought it was okay to grant custody to an abusive parent, which it's not.

And you've got to be kidding me with the abortion clinic issue. 1 per state? Do you imagine that all of us live in this perfect world where we can easily find someone to drive us four or five hours, miss a day of work, come up with whatever exorbitant sum of money the abortion may cost (in my case, it would be about a month's rent), etc? Readily available means less than an hour's drive for all but the most remote citizens. It shouldn't have to be a specialty procedure. It's a very, very common elective medical procedure.

[–]rykocolor1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

sigh it's almost as if you have given no thought or empathy to the other side - I will respond just this last time, because I am growing weary of this conversation.

but it can be cultured through legislation

This is called indoctrination, brainwashing, etc. I am against it in all forms.

relegate the majority of famous women to a single month

They aren't 'relegated to single month' it is a celebration of them during a single month yes - but many of these 'famous women' didn't actually do something big enough to be listed in the rather short history curriculum of US (and German) schools - but when women did do something major, they are mention - like Marie Curie, or Queen Elizabeth. It's sort of like where you made the observation that men are not the victims of violence because they are men (which I would disagree with, especially during times of war when men are by far the majority of people killed) - but in history men aren't mentioned 'because they are men' - they are mentioned because they did something great.

Women have their genitals sewn shut--not circumcised, sewn shut.

Oh yes, this is certainly a big issue. Something most women do not realize however, is that there are forms of male circumcision that involve getting the penis completely open from top to bottom, exposing the urinary tract, and other horrible things - this isn't about oppression olympics, or which one is worse --> any form of genital mutilation is deplorable, so let's start acting like it.

movement that generalizes our entire gender as playing the victim

You cannot be talking about the MRM, as our position is that most of the time when a man or woman says they were raped, they actually were. Noticing that sometimes this isn't the case, and that women are often punished less severely for sexual assault, doesn't mean we think women are playing the victim or that they are always lying. I mean really...you just got upset that the entire movement, which has no stated theory, generalizes all women are playing the victim, while generalizing the MRM. Surely you see the irony in that?

we can't be expected to contribute to a war is just as misogynist as the idea that men should have to is misandrist.

The draft oppresses men, not women. End of story. It is a great inequality. I do not want women to be a part of the draft, I want the draft to be removed completely as it has never once been used for the immediate protection of the United States - not once

On abortion - I think your country is fucked up and needs to change, it certainly has issues. But lets take Germany where it is certainly readily available, and generally free - the argument applies. And for the US, the argument shouldn't be that men have to be on the hook because of this, the argument should be that you need more readily available abortions.

I have enjoyed this conversation, but I can't think of this stuff to much in one week or I get depressed and upset...so I am going to go think about cars, video games, and life. Have a nice day :)

[–]spektralmia1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]rykocolor1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]spektralmia1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Title	Are you a feminist?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	0
Comments	40
Date	March 19, 2013 10:01 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/1amdv3/are-you-a-feminist/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/are-you-a-feminist.1608569 https://theredarchive.com/post/1608569

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