Evolutionary Psychology and Feminism.

[–]thetrollking[S] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ummm, I am not really sure what your comment string in this thread is trying to say.

I didn't editorialize the headline or even make a comment about it.

Feminism gets discussed quite a bit in this reddit and this is about feminism and about evo psych, which is universally hated by feminists and social conservatives from my experience, so I posted it.

I, and I think many others here, have a big problem with ideology.

I haven't found any real ideology in the MRM, other than it focuses on males but that isn't a ideology but a feature, but I see it all the time in feminism and creationism and so on.

One of my biggest problems with feminism is that it is a ideology that I think is based on false premises. I think that is one of the driving forces behind how feminism hurts boys and men. I could and do say the same about social conservatism and religion and other ideologies.

I keep being told that we need to work with feminists and women and I keep holding out a small glimmer of hope that sites like The "good" man project or No, Seriously What about teh menz would work but they have shown themselve to be feminist appropriation and colonization attempts to me and others. Hell, both are on the sidebar at r/againstmensrights.

I think you may be looking at this in the wrong way, that is if you aren't trolling.

What happens if we find out a biological and evolutionary truth behind gender roles? There may be some, especially in conservative or religious groups, who want to force men or women into those roles but I am not interested in that.

Instead I am interested in fixing the problems and to do so we need to be pragmatic and fully understand the problem before we can create and apply a solution.

So, lets come up with a example.

What if, as I have seen and is quoted below, men are disadvantaged academically due to a competitive evolutionary pressure that places men farther along each side of the cognitive bell curve?

I think this is true and I think that it explains many observations about men in societies. More boys have autism than girls, more boys have learning disabilities than girls. More boys are in the genius range than girls.

One of the problems with our feminized education system, that I have noticed and experienced, that that both really smart and really dumb boys are harmed.

A practical solution would be to take the smart boys and teach them in ways that help them while also taking the learning challenged, whether through a mental disorder or a learning disorder(autism, or ADHD for ex), and give them specialized lessons that help them become and actualize their best cognitive and academic abilities.

This doesn't mean we say, "oh well, its genetic and biologically evolved...fuck it, let them waste." It means that we can identify the problem and it is easier to find a solution with a open mind and as much data as possible.

One of the effects of feminism is this wide spread idea in schools that boys and girls are the same, barring sex equipment, and this simply isn't true. Boys and girls learn in different ways, with boys trending towards kinetic learning and girls towards social and rote memory learning. There are so many other areas where boys and girls mature and learn at different rates.

I wish I had the link but I remember seeing a chinese study that showed that boys fingers even grew at a slower rate up until puberty than girls

[–]guizzy 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

[+]MuForceShoelace 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]Hamakua 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Our sentience and modern civilization would trump any natural gender roles that might exist. The problem is the opposition to men's rights preaches there are no differences between the genders. Everything men can do, women can do at least as well.

This simply is not true. It is far more complicated. There are more men at the bottom and the top of the extremes than there are women. This is a biological and evolutionary fact.

The issue comes when these inherent characteristics have an influence on our modern lives. Competativeness, intelligence, physical strength, all have a larger distribution amongst men than women.

This isn't because nature hates women, it's because evolution never pitted women against themselves, but was happy to pit men against themselves.

One man can procreate with 100 women, 1 woman cannot procreate with 100 men. <--- this is the core of it.

Because one man could possibly procreate with 100 women, "Maleness" has become competitive over the ages. And this isn't just the human species.

Pair bonding might exist to a point, but so does cheating (no the modern social version, but the biological one).

The biology of the sexes and the behaviors derived from said biology has long been documented and observed.

The issue with feminism is that it ignores most hard sciences and instead opens up and sponsors institutes that follow an ideology first. Any data that is in contention with that ideology is either re-engineered to fir a mold, or is purposely discarded/ignored.

Sources.

How the mind works

The War on boys

Is There anything good about men

Science of Gender and Science

There are many more sources that shaped my claims, but the above covers all the assertions I made.

[+]MuForceShoelace -2 points-1 points0 points 15 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]Hamakua 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

How can you be sure then that men deserve equal rights to women?

You are confusing rights with abilities, taking the sentiment of the former and overlaying it on the results of the latter then calling it the patriarchy/misogyny/oppression.

Do you mean men should get quotas for things they are biologically worse than than women?

No, the same way I don't think men have the "right to give birth", it is outside their ability to. But fathers have the right to help raise their kids, that they very much have the ability to do.

or is your claim men are better than women in all possible areas so that could never happen?

Never made that claim. The strongest, smartest and most competitive woman is stronger, smarter, and more competitive than the vast majority of men, however there is at least 1 man stronger, 1 man smarter, and 1 man more competitive than she... mathematically and scientifically speaking (this is ignoring the fact that statistical distribution does not cap either sex from being the best and worst at something, both have outliers, this is just the probability is male).

Now, if I may ask,

What are you trying to get at? You seem to be asking leading and rhetorical questions which frame a way of thinking you have already let solidify.

edit

Also, I don't think you understand the distribution of intelligence. Not only are men statistically dominant at the higher extreme of intelligence, they are also dominant at the lower extreme. There are more smarter and stupider men than there are women.

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[–]guizzy -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

In some ways, they are responsible, yes. For instance, father's rights are very related to the traditional view of men as distant fathers.

In some other ways, though, refusing to accept biological roles is responsible for damaging other men's rights. By refusing to accept that there are differences in ability between men and women, feminists have come to expect equality of results. Their thinking goes like this: if men and women are just as capable of doing anything, the only possible reason for which women are not as successful in field X or Y is that men are oppressing women and keeping them out of this field. The result is affirmative action and sexist hiring practices.

The answer is simple: you can accept that men and women have different imperatives and abilities, without letting it affect rights and opportunity. I don't think most here would argue that there should be anything that penalizes a women that decides to become a mechanic, and there shouldn't be laws or social constructs that penalizes a man that wants to be the primary caregiver for his children.

Then, there's also the issue of whether or not "traditional" gender roles are a good representation of our biological imperatives. There's a lot that happened over the centuries, religions especially, that might have warped gender roles beyond their biological roots.

[–]Demonspawn -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]thetrollking[S] -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link