Exiting the argument

Jakes1967 · 2021-01-31T21:03:02+00:00

...horrendous experience I'd had encountering my first real-life, no-kidding, ultra-feminist bigot in the wild.

They are fun, aren't they? Did she spew the oppression Olympics to you?

Long term, I need a solution.

Mine was a manager, so I just found common ground. She was a TERF, so that was it for me...

2021-01-31T21:18:26+00:00

I'll tell you something that happened to me in like 3rd grade.

My grandfather used to tell these long set up puns he called 'shaggy dog stories' and he told me one about an indian chief named chief shortcake that died, on a train I think, a long involved story i do not remember about what would be done with the body and the punch line was 'squa bury shortcake'

It's prolly racist but i didn't know anything at all about 'racism'.

Well I started to tell it to this one kid, as soon as i said 'indian chief' he just walked away - i didn't even GET it right away but let me tell you it made quite an impression.

editing to add, this is really the best response sometimes, just refusal, ill add

this link to a similar kind of thing i posted about recently, and this song by tmbg

Input_output_error · 2021-02-01T07:57:09+00:00

At the same time, I recognise I'm never going to change this woman's mind. It feels like arguing with a devoutly religious person. Her arguments are not based on rationality, reason or logic so responding with those things is pointless and I don't want to be responsible for her monopolising the committee's time with her multi-minute diatribes.

You don't have to change this woman's mind, you need to talk to other members of this committee. You want her to go on one of her rants, as those perfectly show the other members of the committee that she isn't helping the cause, whatever that may be. Try to really get under her skin, she'll lash out, the more angry she gets the more she will fuck up. When she is angry she wont think straight and start to lash out. Calling someone sexist is easy, but its rather hard to back such a claim up. So you need to have someone else on that committee to have your back.

Let her hang by her self made noose, it is the only way you'll ever get to shut her up. In the end she is not someone you want to have on a committee and you need to show the rest of them how awful she really is. Use her own weapons against her, call her a racist and a sexist, show the others that this is a toxic person.

Yea, it will be a war, and it won't be nice. But your only options are these:

Keep status quo and have her take over the committee with her antics.
Leave the committee.
Or go and win this fight.

These are your only options, there isn't some long time plan to all live in peace as she won't allow that to happen. Call her out on her bullshit and give no quarter as you'll be granted none either. Rally others when you talk with them, make her and her antics the topic of conversation.

someNOOB · 2021-02-01T03:17:11+00:00

Unless I'm misreading the situation it sounds like the other members of the committee you're concerned about share your doubts about this woman's proposals and attitude. To me it sounds like the appropriate thing to do is make a social appeal to the rest of the group to not tolerate her antics. I don't mean to necessarily make a bold face callout, but rather ask someone you know doesn't agree what their take on the situation is? "Hey Janet, am I missing something here? It sounds like this approach isn't what we should be doing" or something along those lines.

Impossible_Cat_9796 · 2021-02-03T00:57:18+00:00

Don't argue, debate. In an argument the goal is to change the other person's mind. In a Debate the goal is to sway the audience. You know her, the ultra-bigots are easy to manipulate. When you will have to interact with her, set it up so that both your words and hers sway the audience (the other committee members) to what you want.

My favored tactic here is prep work. Before the meeting chat her up with something you KNOW will set her off. Get her all worked up and annoyed BEFORE the meeting. She will then, without your prompting in the meeting, stump about whatever you pissed her off with. This will drive discontent with her and not cause blow back on you. Cause unpleasentness for the sake of unpleasentness, but don't be SEEN doing it. If you can get enough of it blamed on her, then it's likely to get her kicked.

CinnamonToastSquanch · 2021-01-31T21:05:50+00:00

What is this committee?

iainmf · 2021-02-01T02:29:23+00:00

Here are some thoughts I have about online interactions that might apply to the real world.

1) Agree with her as much as possible. If she makes correct observations, or states facts, then say you agree with her on those points. You don't have to agree with her conclusions though.

2) Avoid direct disagreement if possible. Don't say 'but'. "Eg I agree blacks are under-represented. That's one factor to consider." rather than "Sure, blacks are under-represented, but I don't think that is important"

3) Careful one-upmanship. Make a case that your solution is better than her solution, based on values she can't reject. EG "gender quotas only superficially empower women. If we really want to empower women, we can't treat women like balancing columns in a spreadsheet. Instead, we need to find ways empower women that means a woman has more power without the protection of quota system".

4) Ask for her advice. Because she thinks quite differently than you, she will occasionally have useful insights you won't have. She may also have experience in other areas that you can draw on. Asking for advice also shows that you are not just a contrarian and see her as a person. In fact, I would even say things like "You think about things quite differently from me, which is great because it opens up more possibilities than if only one of us was here".

5) Focus on her as an individual. If she is concerned about the purity and doing things in the 'correct' way according to her ideology, remind her that she is an individual with her own unique opinions. EG "That's the mainstream opinion, but everyone sees things differently, what do you think about it?"

6) Get solid, accountable answers. "How will we know it is working? What can we measure to find out? How much misogyny is there? It is important to have these things pinned down so we know we are not making things worse for martialized groups. We don't what to create a 'system of oppression'"

Title	Exiting the argument
Author	Huffers1010
Upvotes	7
Comments	15
Date	January 31, 2021 7:40 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/l9k300/exiting_the_argument/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/exiting-the-argument.834998 https://theredarchive.com/post/834998

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