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/feminisms and /twox teaming up for Project: Censor Tucker Max

kloo2yoo

January 11, 2011
0 upvotes
/r/MensRights

http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/ezpfe/help_me_keep_tucker_max_from_speaking_at_my_school/

http://www.reddit.com/r/feminisms/comments/ezw5u/can_we_help_a_redditor_keep_tucker_max_from/

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Post Information
Title /feminisms and /twox teaming up for Project: Censor Tucker Max
Author

kloo2yoo

Upvotes 0
Comments 41
Date January 11, 2011 1:12 AM UTC
(15 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ezwlg/feminisms_and_twox_teaming_up_for_project_censor/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminisms-and-twox-teaming-up-for-project-censor.1044452
https://theredarchive.com/post/1044452
Red Pill terms in post
feminism
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"I have never been a feminist, because, having experienced my mother's violence, I always knew that women can be as vicious and irresponsible as men." - Erin Pizzey, creater of the first English DV shelter

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He, fully clothed, grabbed his crotch and said something crude during an argument. He's now on the sex offender registry.

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Comments

[+]ycombinator 15 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Some of the comments in that post are golden:

My sister is the advisor that oversees the students who decide speakers at a college.... She gets crazy emails from people all the time complaining that they were offended. The most recent being a drawing of pirate ships for a themed event that someone said was offensive to all Latin Americans because it depicted the colonization of the Americas.

WTF??!!

[–]Fatalistic 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Extreme political correctness.

[–]ycombinator7 points 15 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

One of the objections she has to TM appearing at her school seems to be that the student government will be paying for it, thus the money used is tuition money.

I wonder if she understands how many of us men feel when we have to be publicly lectured and shamed about things like rape (when we haven't raped anyone, ever) and "male privileged" on campus - paid for with our tuition money?

I guess another point is that you don't always get to have a say in how the school spends your tuition money.

Also, she really doesn't have an argument against this guy other than, "He's a big meanie and I don't like him" so that's why she has taken to the intarwebs: to have someone provide her with an argument against ol' Tucker showin' his face at her school since she can't seem to formulate one herself.

[–]GroundhogExpert 4 points5 points6 points 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I thought I had some decent points to make, I guess not!

[–]kloo2yoo[S] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

your sarcasm is verbally violent.

[–]GroundhogExpert 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Most of the comments are buried. I think I'm both fairly entertaining and able to offer some worthwhile perspective. I guess having a dick negates all that.

[–]kloo2yoo[S] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

don't know why you're getting downvoted here.

for other readers' elucidation:

verbal violence is one of the crimes of which TM was accused.

[–]GroundhogExpert 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Because a number of the hyper feminists from 2x are going around downvoting my comments all over reddit. It's pretty obvious considering that I've gotten downvoted in MMA subreddit for praising Sakuraba.

[–]kloo2yoo[S] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

congratulations. you're effective enough to have been noticed.

[–]GroundhogExpert 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, they all seem to think I'm a woman hater. I'm not. I just say the things I think, and I'm a pretty staunch egalitarian. That seems to really piss most of them off(or maybe it's just a few with a number of accounts). I honestly don't get why so many get so pissed off, and the ones who are so hostile have SUCH bad logic and reasoning skills. I'll be damned if I'm gonna get lured into a logic debate in a thread with 20 pissed off feminists looking for more excuses to complain and group-up against me.

Honestly, I hold so much back when I'm in one of those threads. I'm really on my best behavior. I still try to be assertive(as well as jocular and candid), but I watch the way I present my points. And still I'm accused of being a troll. I think I make some pretty solid points in that thread. I'm also fairly quick to admit where I might be wrong.

[–]DapperDad 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I find it humorous that this commenter

http://www.reddit.com/r/feminisms/comments/ezw5u/can_we_help_a_redditor_keep_tucker_max_from/c1c8rx7

is complaining about a "Men's rights" bury brigade, while attempting to plan a real life bury brigade on a public speaker.

I also see that this thread has been heavily buried.

For the record, I think down voting opinions you don't like is counter productive. It frequently hides many excellent rebuttals.

[–]BaconZombies 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

You should learn the difference between 'censor' and 'campaign against having your tuition money pay for their speaking engagement'.

She makes several salient points as to why he shouldn't speak, probably the best of which is the fact that the vast majority of his stories have been completely discredited. He has nothing to teach anyone except for how to get a book on the lower rungs of the NYT bestseller lists on shock value alone.

Posts like this are the reason that /TwoX and /feminisms and /women hate this subreddit. This has nothing to do with mens' rights, and everything to do with trying to trash on something /2x and /feminisms are doing. Cut it the fuck out, you're making all of us look bad.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 15 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

campaign against having your tuition money pay for their speaking engagement

No, it isn't. It's not their tuition money anymore. Just like when you go to the grocery store and buy a bag of chips, you don't get to decide what is done with the money after that. It's their money, not yours. If the student have some objection then they can just refuse to pay tuition and go somewhere else. Otherwise, it's censorship to tell them what to do with money they already posses.

[–]BaconZombies -4 points-3 points-2 points 15 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

If the student have some objection then they can just refuse to pay tuition and go somewhere else.

Or they could make an effort to make their school not suck, with the implied threat being that they will take their remaining tuition money somewhere else next semester if it does suck. Telling an organization that you've given money to what they should do with said money is further away from censorship than what the /2x post is doing, which also isn't censorship.

College is both an investment and an interactive experience. Students get a lot less out of it if they don't get involved and put forward ideas about what the college should teach.

[–]GroundhogExpert 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Why do you people persist in characterizing this as a debate between whether someone has the right to speak their mind? Show me one post from a non-feminist suggesting that someone shouldn't speak-up or protest or take any of the appropriate channels to address problems. Just one. I can show you lots of posts of feminists clearly supporting censorship because this one comedian makes crude jokes, and how he shouldn't be allowed on a campus as a result. But you can you show me just one where someone is saying that the OP is in the wrong to voice her opinion to her University?

[–]BaconZombies -5 points-4 points-3 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Show me one post from a non-feminist suggesting that someone shouldn't speak-up or protest or take any of the appropriate channels to address problems. Just one.

Umm...how about a mere two replies up from this quote.

No, it isn't. It's not their tuition money anymore. Just like when you go to the grocery store and buy a bag of chips, you don't get to decide what is done with the money after that. It's their money, not yours. If the student have some objection then they can just refuse to pay tuition and go somewhere else. Otherwise, it's censorship to tell them what to do with money they already posses.

[–]GroundhogExpert 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh, you're insane. Glad we got that out of the way. That post isn't telling anyone not to voice their opinion, it's saying that given an expressed view, the university as an institution still gets to decide how to spend THEIR money. It IS, after all, the university's money, and no longer the students' tuition. They PAID tuition, and that payment has since become the funds of another entity. Demanding that the institution spend that money however a minority faction deems fit IS a form of censorship, the guy opining all of that is absolutely correct. Get it? I doubt you do.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Or they could make an effort to make their school not suck

Yes, and if there is an argument about how TM with destroy a schools academic standing then make it instead of a weak argument about how others should spend their money.

Telling an organization that you've given money to what they should do with said money is further away from censorship

Not it isnt, especially when they already have the money and you didn't stipulate how they spend it before you gave it to them. You cant just give out money and then think you can control other peoples lives. Hell, this person isnt even GIVING out money, they paid a fee and now think they gt to determine policy.

Students get a lot less out of it if they don't get involved and put forward ideas about what the college should teach.

Only "they are using my money for this" isnt a debate over the merits of an idea.

[–]BaconZombies -2 points-1 points0 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Not it isnt, especially when they already have the money and you didn't stipulate how they spend it before you gave it to them. You cant just give out money and then think you can control other peoples lives. Hell, this person isnt even GIVING out money, they paid a fee and now think they gt to determine policy.

Based on this argument, you don't get to say anything about politics except at the ballot box: you already paid your taxes, it's the government's money now and you get no say in how it's spent. This is, of course, an absurd idea.

The implied threat is the same as in politics or at a grocery store: I don't like what you're doing with my tuition fees/vote/bag of chips money. Change it, or I will take my tuition fees/vote/bag of chips money to another college/candidate/grocery store next election/semester/time I go shopping.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This is, of course, an absurd idea.

Yes, it is absurd, but not for your reasons. We get a say in how we spend our tax dollars because we live in a democratic republic. Universities arent democratic republics.

Change it, or I will take my tuition fees/vote/bag of chips money to another college/candidate/grocery store next election/semester/time I go shopping.

Yes, exactly. This is totally different from the U.S. tax system analogy. Of course, it's also not much of a threat. If you are willing to go through the hassle of finding another school and then transferring your credit hours (which a university doesn't have to exactly 'comply" with) because you dont like a speaker your university is having this semester, then go ahead. The reason this isnt a threat is because no sane person will actually do it.

[–]BaconZombies -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

From OP in /2x:

Tonight the student government at my university is having a meeting to decide whether or not to invite Tucker Max to speak at our school.

It might not be exactly like the US, but I'm pretty sure their student government works roughly like a democratic republic.

(which a university doesn't have to exactly 'comply" with)

They're required by law to give your transcripts. It's up to the college you transfer to to decide what credits will come with you. And is it an empty threat when someone says they'll transfer colleges because they don't like the way theirs is run? Usually, but I'd imagine it happens more than you think.

[–]kloo2yoo[S] 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

if i go to any given state U, my tuition money will go, in part, to pay for the feminism department, whether or not I enlist in them.

[–]BaconZombies -3 points-2 points-1 points 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

That's because Womens' Studies is a learning department. Tucker Max is not. He has no inherent right to speak at the school. Therefore, this is not censorship.

[–]kloo2yoo[S] 8 points9 points10 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

He has no inherent right to get paid for speaking, I'll grant that much.

[–]DrDeezee 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Learning department? Last time I checked, some feminist scholars think knowledge was a male construct designed to oppress women, and that we have to restructure all of education to better suit women's needs.

[–]BaconZombies -2 points-1 points0 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Science department? Last time I checked, some scientific scholars think that ingredients in vaccines are responsible for autism and Shaken Baby Syndrome, and that we have to restructure all of medicine to better suit terrified mothers' needs.

[–]DrDeezee 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Clever, but, no really:

Elizabeth Fee articulates this belief: “Knowledge was created as an act of aggression—a passive nature had to be interrogated, unclothed, penetrated, and compelled by man to reveal her secrets” (qtd. in Sommers 66) while Catharine MacKinnon claims that, for men, “to know has meant to fuck” (qtd. in Sommers 66). “In a similar mood, Sandra Harding suggests that Newton’s Principles of Mechanics could just as aptly be called “Newton’s Rape Manual”” (Sommers 66).

[–]BaconZombies -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Clever, but, no really:

Until recently, the vaccine death would have just been labelled "sudden infant death", particularly if the symptoms and pathological findings were minimal. However, nowadays, with an alarmingly increasing frequency, the parents (or at least one of them, usually the father) may be accused of shaking the baby to death. The accused may even "confess" to shaking the baby, giving the reason, for example, that having found the baby lying still and not breathing an/or with a glazed look in its eyes, they shook it gently-as is only natural-in their attempt to revive it. Sometimes, ironically, they save the baby's life, only to be accused of causing the internal injuries that made the baby stop breathing in the first place, and which in fact were already present when they shook the baby to revive it. -Viera Scheibner, Ph.D.

Point being that the opinions of fringe crazy people do not invalidate points of logical, sane people.

[–]DrDeezee 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Logical, sane people don't think a women's studies degree is worth anything. ;)

[–]GroundhogExpert 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

You should learn what 'salient' means. Salient means noticeable, in these sorts of contexts, or maybe even something like apparent/important. Her points wouldn't be salient unless they were being recalled, or were subpoints for a larger case, and these more salient points are the crux of her position. But it doesn't mean solid or worthwhile, which is how you seem to be using it.

Proclaiming something shouldn't happen because I disapprove regardless of other opinions and taking active steps to prevent this outcome IS censorship, or at the very least an attempt at censorship. Not all censorship is bad, but be honest about what the obvious interpretation of that thread is. Voicing an opinion is distinct. Do you see the difference between saying "I don't want this to happen and I disprove" and "this must be stopped, let's all work together to keep others from enjoying this?"

Tucker Max has nothing to teach other than how to conjure a successful career from fabricated stories and become a best-selling author before 30? Yeah, that sounds pretty useless to me, too. I don't know if his stories have been debunked, but if they have, then it's pretty impressive that he still has a career. That A Million Little Pieces guy is back into obscurity.

Also, it was clearly established by the thread starter that this wasn't for educational purposes. This is just the entertainment choice, and they have had other comedians perform, that a number of students from the student-government have proposed. What does educational value matter for this event? I think a more worthwhile point would be something along the lines of Tucker Max being notable void of cultural relevance, that he offers nothing that might help expand the students' grasp of differing cultures. Or something like that.

Hardcore feminists make themselves look bad. Anyone who is honest cannot avoid the obvious conclusion that the most vocal group on the 2x subreddit(and likely the others you mentioned, though I haven't been on them, but they are probably the same people) are extremists and intensely biased against pretty much anything that isn't lifting women above men. Simply put, they hate men and they hate anything in society that doesn't attempt to shift the playing field in their favor. It's not about equality for them, you should have the integrity to at least admit that much.

[–]BaconZombies -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

You should learn what 'salient' means.

Oh gods, I very slightly misused a word. Please excuse me while I go and throw myself upon my sword.

Proclaiming something shouldn't happen because I disapprove regardless of other opinions and taking active steps to prevent this outcome IS censorship, or at the very least an attempt at censorship.

No, it isn't. There is a difference between saying that he shouldn't be able to speak on the campus and saying that student-paid funds should not be given to him to speak on campus. The former is censorship. OP is stating the latter.

I don't know if his stories have been debunked, but if they have, then it's pretty impressive that he still has a career.

One of the many sites that details this behavior. He's been getting called out for years now.

Also, it was clearly established by the thread starter that this wasn't for educational purposes.

That's not relevant. You'd have exactly as much right to protest Ann Coulter coming to your college campus on your dime if it was billed as being for entertainment.

Hardcore feminists make themselves look bad.

It doesn't take integrity to admit that, it takes common sense. Of course they make themselves look bad. You know what doesn't help mens' rights? Stooping to their level and making the rest of us look just as bad.

I maintain my point that the only reason this thread was created is that it was brought up in /2x and it's a man they're campaigning against. It's retarded, it's counterproductive, and it immediately resulted in a bunch of anti-MRA vitriol from /2x, which does everybody exactly zero good. Seriously, cut it the fuck out.

[–]GroundhogExpert 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You misused a word. Now you know better. Take the lessons when they're free.

I was pointing out that the OP only later went on to make the second claim, but that a completely reasonable interpretation of her original post was the former.

I don't actually care about Tucker Max, or debating his life/career or anything he's said. I just thought it was odd how you're saying he has nothing to teach anyone, other than a bunch of very useful skills on how to become a published and best-selling author.

It's not relevant that your primary point is moot? Ok, buddy, whatever you say. Protesting is fine. Voicing your opinion is fine. Saying you're disgruntled is fine. No one has said otherwise. But trying to bar something simply because you don't approve is not ok, that's a breed of paternalism very few are willing to accept, and obviously no one around here.

Where has anyone stooped to any level? I've tried several times to have candid discussions with 2x, and they all unfold in about the same way.

This final point is blatantly wrong. I think the over-all mood in even this thread talking about the one created in 2x was that a bunch of feminists are creating an echo-chamber that says it's ok to ban and censor someone because he uses words they don't like. And now you're in here, trying to deflect the topic and pretend it's being intentionally misinterpreted. It's not, the attitudes expressed by a number of the posters in 2x are just as bad as the people in MR are suggesting. It's a complete disconnection from reality, with phrases like "verbal violence."

Words aren't bullets, grow the hell up.

[–]BaconZombies 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I was pointing out that the OP only later went on to make the second claim, but that a completely reasonable interpretation of her original post was the former.

"Whenever I try to focus and pin down exactly why he shouldn't be paid to come speak with my tuition dollars..." That's the third sentence in the original post, so no...that point was not only made later.

It's not relevant that your primary point is moot?

My primary point is not that he's not educational. It's that students have every right to campaign to their school on what should be done with their tuition fees.

Where has anyone stooped to any level?

Here, maybe? Illogical discussions in /2x don't license illogical discussions here in retribution; in fact, it's all the more reason that we should stay calm and sane.

This final point is blatantly wrong. I think the over-all mood in even this thread talking about the one created in 2x was that a bunch of feminists are creating an echo-chamber that says it's ok to ban and censor someone because he uses words they don't like.

Fact: this thread would not exist if someone in /2x asked about how they could keep Ann Coulter or Snooki from being paid to speak at their school. It's here because it's women campaigning against a man.

And now you're in here, trying to deflect the topic and pretend it's being intentionally misinterpreted. It's not, the attitudes expressed by a number of the posters in 2x are just as bad as the people in MR are suggesting. It's a complete disconnection from reality, with phrases like "verbal violence."

A condensed timeline:

  • OP: I don't want my school to pay Tucker Max to speak. Help me come up with a better argument against it than what I have now.

  • Thread: some valid points are made, some 'meh' happens, and some crazies come out (much like most of the threads on Reddit, really)

  • MR Thread: 2x is trying to censor Tucker Max!

  • Me: A student lobbying on who to pay with student funds isn't censorship.

  • You: Yeah, but that doesn't matter because they're saying crazy shit in that thread!

Craziness on the part of the fringe does not invalidate points made by the mainstream.

I stand by my original points that OP is not engaging in censorship even if the crazy element of /2x is screaming for her to do so, and that this makes /MensRights look bad because it has nothing to do with censorship and everything to do with "oh look, /2x is acting bad, let's get 'em!!!"

[–]GroundhogExpert 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

You decided to take this discussion out of the realm of a legitimate debate. By pretending that my points are nothing more than ad hominem attacks, you've decided that this topic is no longer worth actual consideration and genuine concern for intellectual exchange. You raised points, I countered them. They weren't issues I pulled out of the air, they were responses to your criticisms.

Unless you care to return to a civil and legitimate discussion, I'm done with you.

[–]Fatalistic 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

Wasn't there some young feminist who said how disgusted she was by Tucker Max, then met him and wound up having sex with him.

Edit: http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/new-dating-game

[–]kloo2yoo[S] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

?

[–]Fatalistic 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I'll see if I can dig up the story. I remember reading about it a while ago.

[–]kloo2yoo[S] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

prolly not the only story

[–]Fatalistic 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

That's the same story. Kind of funny though. Really helps affirm that you should "watch what they do, not what they say."

[–]kloo2yoo[S] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

it's as if, every other discrediting tactic having been tried, she goes for the 'lousy lay' attack.

[–]Peritract -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Don't do this. Calling other subreddits is cheating.

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