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Feminists try to marginalize Janet Bloomfield's book

_malat

December 21, 2014
25 upvotes
/r/MensRights

http://judgybitch.com/2014/12/21/a-man-decides-feminists-can-ruin-him-and-wisely-opts-to-not-engage/

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Post Information
Title Feminists try to marginalize Janet Bloomfield's book
Author

_malat

Upvotes 25
Comments 15
Date December 21, 2014 4:21 AM UTC
(11 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/2py3i3/feminists-try-to-marginalize-janet-bloomfields-/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminists-try-to-marginalize-janet-bloomfields.1624095
https://theredarchive.com/post/1624095
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feminist
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Comments

[–]See-97 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This blog post was...extremely confusing as I don't know who Janet Bloomfield is, what judgybitch.com is (sounds like a jezebel sister site), or what her book was about. After re-reading it I get it more; sucks for the author, but I'm not surprised by the politics.

As an aside to that, I'd like to take a second to ask a favor from everyone: Can this sub please stop using rhetoric crafted, manipulated, and popularized by third wave feminism? Words such as: marginalized, oppression, "shaming", harassment and sexual assault, (in cases where it's not actually harassment), matriarchy, etc. I have a few more but I'll leave those to its own post, as it'll be controversial.

These words are literally what first got me skeptical about third-wave feminism in the first place, and I find now that people here are re-appropriating the words for their own use in the context of Men's Rights. Now, I'm not sure this shift started in parody and irony, but I see more and more in this sub that the rhetoric is used without humor and with the same intent as third-wave feminism.

The intent of most of these words is to evoke a particularly strong knee-jerk emotional response to immediately gain the favor and agreement of the reader. Their common usage n most of these gender debates, on both sides, not only has no place, but it borders on propaganda. The use of such language immediately makes me more skeptical of the author's intent, and will actively dissuade critical thinkers from your arguments if you use the term in an exaggeratory manner to gain that immediate knee-jerk agreement.

Please do not participate in a Victim Olympics. In the event where there's injustice, focus on the injustice itself instead of the victim behind it. Shifting the discussion towards men being the "real victims" or how we "have it so much harder than women" or any other us vs them scenario is the exact same infantile argument put forth by the same movement this group rejects. Yet more and more I see this sub and ilk resort to those methods. Don't fall prey to their rhetorical tactics, and certainly don't assimilate those into your own. Let your argument stand on its own by showing injustice for what it is; if your point is true then you don't need to use exaggerated rhetorical devices to show it.

<insert Nietzsche quote here>

See-9 out drops mic

[–]PM_ME_UR_PLANTS5 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Janet is a conservative MRA. Not really my flavor of MRA, but she's been picked up by AVFM and has gained more of a voice than just the blog she contributes (judgybitch). She had a debate with a non-academic egalitarian feminist on the drunken peasants/amazing atheist youtube channel and IMO performed poorly. That's a place you can go if you want to see more of what she's about.

As for the rest of your post, I'm OK with some of the victim olympics for a few reasons, and just think it's important not to go overboard. So admitting victimhood, but not olympics per se. I see it as part of the empathy gap that was and still is just as real as the wage gap before feminism attacked it. If men are going to be invited into home life and careers like nursing and early childcare/teaching, changes in how men are viewed need to happen. Bring up men's weaknesses are a way to do that.

As far as the terminology, I again think it's more a matter of how it is used than that it is used. For one, the terms are common and both people will know what they mean, so in that way communication can be aided. Secondly, usage of the same models can reveal double-standards, and double-standards are a big issue in men's rights.

This is the problem I have with a lot of Janet's work though. She has conviction, but seems to put to practice in a manner and direction that often runs counter to my views. I tend to take more of a Warren Farrell approach, particularly since society is coming around on the issues anyway. Being combative can drive away allies as well as opponents, and that's a problem now that allies are starting to show up.

[–]See-93 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't mind showing victimhood to a point, what I don't like is making it out to be "Well, women are way more oppressed than men!" - "No, men are the more marginalized group!" whe in reality, neither men nor women are oppressed or marginalized, not in the true sense of the word. These conditions are borne of fascist regimes and dictatorships, out of whole governments and institutions, not because there's some relatively minor social issues that appear to affect one group more than another.

You can show whatever victimhood and double-standard you need to without resorting to the same language and propaganda that radical feminists have been using since the 70's. I swear, looking through the front page and comments in this sub lately reminds me of early Dworkin and the like, with insane claims and using ridiculous language to drive home an illegitimate point. It's less a game of facts and winning with rationale, it's about being the most victim and using the most emotionally charged words to convince other people of that.

[–]PM_ME_UR_PLANTS2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well, with the recent uptick in MGTOW/men on strike behavior and the coining of "gynocentrism", the manosphere/men's rights community/whatever is currently entering second wave and echoing the feminist movement. I'd like to hope the community at large doesn't adopt views that are wrong like second wave feminists, but maybe it's an inevitable part of how humans act. I guess we'll find out. I'm fine with fighting the good fight to keep things realistic, but I don't know if I really expect to win that fight.

Rudyard Kipling nailed it in "The Disciple". It is very likely the nature of how people follow that corrupts even the best of messages.

[–]guywithaccount3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Words such as: marginalized, oppression, "shaming", harassment and sexual assault, (in cases where it's not actually harassment), matriarchy, etc.

You realize those words actually have meanings?

The whole point of MR is that men are disadvantaged, abused, and discriminated against. It's impossible to do anything about that if you can't even talk about it. If you're going to talk about it, you need to use words that describe oppression, marginalization, abuse, and so forth, and you have to be willing to say that men are being hurt and victimized.

As it so happens, feminists have been at this a lot longer than us, and they've already used a lot of those words by now.

There are some feminist framings and ideas that we don't want to legitimize, and others (like "matriarchy") that just sound reactionary and whiny, but if you're going to throw the word baby out with the feminist bathwater, you might as well duct tape your mouth shut, throw your keyboard away, and be done.

[–]See-93 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You realize those words actually have meanings?

Yes, I realize words have meaning. THank you.

The whole point of MR is that men are disadvantaged, abused, and discriminated against. It's impossible to do anything about that if you can't even talk about it. If you're going to talk about it, you need to use words that describe oppression, marginalization, abuse, and so forth, and you have to be willing to say that men are being hurt and victimized.

No, you don't. Men aren't oppressed. Women aren't oppressed. We don't live in an oppression regime. Let's look at the word oppressed:

Oppression is the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner

What authority is oppressing men? What authority is using their in a cruel or unjust manner? The answer...is no one. Yes, there are certain scenarios especially in the justice system that favor women over men, but that isn't oppression, it's a shitty system. The idea that the justice system favors women simply to fuck over men is insane, and it's reminiscient of the basis of patriarchy theory (opposite, obviously). Hence my point...these words are often-times not used correctly. They are used to gain immediate agreement or favor from the reader because of the knee-jerk reaction associated with the word.

I don't have an issue talking about men being hurt. I don't have an issue discussing that men can be victims. My issue is that we cannot make the discussion that WE are MORE victim-like than women. That's not going to get us anywhere. It's been shown time and again that people don't give a shit if men are victims, several studies have gone around in this very subreddit, so why would you make that your platform? Especially using the same rhetorical tactics of the movement you're against?

If oyu shift the focus from being a victim, and towards what MAKES you a victim, it's easier to empathize and the issue becomes a problem to solve instead of just feeling bad at the state of things. Using words like "oppression" and 'marginalized" and shit is just re-appropriating disingenuous and manipulative feminist propaganda. Men aren't oppressed. We aren't truly marginalized. Go look up these words, read about their etymology and you can easily that men OR women don't truly fit most of this rhetoric.

Focusing on being a victim just makes you look weak. It's the horrible contradiction that feminism has been living for quite some time now - they say they are strong, independent women, but who are the uncontested weak victims of society. Why would you want to follow in their footsteps?

[–]guywithaccount2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oppression is the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner

Huh. Well, that would certainly fit a lot of child support and custody arrangements. How about Duluth model policing and unequal prosecution and sentencing? The war on drugs (which is arguably racially motivated, but affects mainly poor men)? College sexual assault proceedings?

You know, normally I would agree with you that "oppressed" is a bit too extreme to describe men's position in society, but you're kinda convincing me the other way right now.

My issue is that we cannot make the discussion that WE are MORE victim-like than women.

Do you plan to wait for people to spontaneously figure it out for themselves?

There is a popular narrative that women have it worse in almost everything. The truth is that men have it worse in a lot of things - not all things, but enough to put "patriarchy" to bed - and if we don't spread that truth, it won't get very far.

It's been shown time and again that people don't give a shit if men are victims

What's your excuse, then? Why are you here? Why are any of us here? Are you suggesting we're not people?

If oyu shift the focus from being a victim, and towards what MAKES you a victim, it's easier to empathize and the issue becomes a problem to solve instead of just feeling bad at the state of things.

Sounds like you're tilting at windmills. No one in the MRM is claiming that men should be conferred some kind of holy "victim" status as a class, and thus automatically become objects of pity and charity without any consideration for what, if anything, they're being victimized by.

Focusing on being a victim just makes you look weak.

What's wrong with looking weak? Oh wait... is it unmanly?

[–][deleted]2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You are clearly new, so maybe try figuring out what is going on before deciding what should be going on, m'kay?

I must say though, it's hilarious how you feel the need to tell others how to communicate effectively, after starting off by stating that you have absolutely no understanding of anything at hand... judgybitch a jezebel sister site, haha, oh wow.

[–]See-9-4 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I have a feeling reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.

[–][deleted]0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Aw, you're cute. :3

[–]See-93 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Okay, I'll bite. My understanding of a website and an author really has no bearing on me being new to the sub or this entire issue whatsoever. The only reason I put this here was because the title contains a word that I continually see misused in feminists camps, and it's again misused here. The word OP is looking for is "minimize" - and even then, I don't see any evidence of that in the blog post. The only thing I see is a publisher pulled out because they were worried about the feminist demographic. Again, completely unsurprising.

Secondly, I find your condescending attitude extremely amusing and ironic given that...this is exactly what OP portrays these feminists as doing to the autho, you're doing to me. Obviously I know judgybitch.com isn't a jezebel sister site (I mean come on, that sounds like a tumblr SJW's brainchild) and I get the situation...I just had to re-read it. The reason I said that in the first paragraph was because if OP had adde maybe 2-3 lines of explanation at the beginning of his post before the link, it would provide some necessary background info to people like me, who aren't familiar with the website or the author.

Thirdly, you didn't respond to ANY of my other points. None of my argument above is contingent AT ALL upon understanding Janet Bloomfield or judgybitch.com, and yet you jump on that as if my ignorance to that subject completely undermines anything else I would possibly say. If you disagree with my reasoning, fine, but I'd appreciate if you'd actually...show your grievances, not hide behind a sarcastic tone and false presumptions. It's really reminiscient of shitty feminist logic.

[–][deleted]2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If you have questions you should ask them, not bitch about how all of your questions are not preemptively dealt with. Did OP misuse "marginalize"? Yes, but it was clearly a simple mistake, and the feminist ruination of language has been discussed ad nauseam, going back to waiter/waitress/server, and female actors versus actresses; all you brought to the conversation was bitching.

You are not in a position to accuse everyone else of behaving like feminists if that's what are are bringing to the table.

[–]See-93 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If you have questions you should ask them,

I didn't have questions, I said in my original first paragraph after re-reading I understood the context. Your reading comprehension is truly impeccable.

Did OP misuse "marginalize"? Yes, but it was clearly a simple mistake

It's a simple mistake I see in the sub every day, as more and more people re-appropriate disingenuous propaganda tactics from the feminist side.

the feminist ruination of language has been discussed ad nauseam, going back to waiter/waitress/server, and female actors versus actresses; all you brought to the conversation was bitching.

Good thing I'm not talking about the feminist ruination, I'm talking about Men's Rights adoption of that ruination, to its own detriment.

You are not in a position to accuse everyone else of behaving like feminists if that's what are are bringing to the table.

Says the person who won't address any of my points and resorts to infantile insults and sarcasm to prove their lack of an argument. Nice side step by the way, you don't need to defend your shitty logic and attitude, just accuse me of doing the same thing. How progressive.

[–][deleted]-1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Seriously, adorable.

[–]joewilson-MRA2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What happened to Janet is the reason a lot of MRAs still operate under an alias. There is an initiative to demonize the men's rights initiative and being associated with it can (and as we just saw proof of it - does) hurt your professional standing.

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