Is there some underlying message I'm missing with the friendzone dialogue?

GenderNeutralLanguag · 2015-08-28T19:29:07+00:00

"Friend Zone" and "Nice Guy" are a lot like "Patriarchy". They are used so much in so many different ways that they are functionally meaningless. These super duper mega giga overloaded words mean anything and everything and all things and nothing and puppy dogs and Unicorns.

Any post that actually uses these words is pointless and meaningless because they are talking about ideas so broad they are all inclusive of everything.

mariox19 · 2015-08-28T21:10:46+00:00

Here's what's going on in a nutshell.

The "nice guys" who wind up being friend-zoned have bought into a bit of nonsense. They've bought into the idea that "men are all about sex" and that women want sex (or should want sex) only with someone who is "The One," so they try to completely downplay the fact that they want to have sex and proceed as if only they can just be friends enough with a woman they're interested in, eventually the relationship will evolve to another level.

Women, on the other hand, respond this way. Women want to be desired as sexual beings. Now, exactly what that means varies with the woman; but the important thing is that a man, if he is interested in a woman, needs to be able to communicate, as appropriate (and this is the tricky part), that he recognizes and appreciates her nature as a sexual being. (I'm sorry if that sounds New Age-y. I don't know how else to express it.)

When a woman interacts with a "nice guy," the sexually-minded part of her mind simply doesn't light up. Women are emotional creatures, and when it comes to relationships, especially, they make up their minds based on their feelings. So, because the guy isn't turning her on, she never comes to "think of him that way." Instead, she thinks of him as a friend—and once in that box, it is almost impossible to get out of it. A man will never get out of that box simply by being "friendlier." And trying to change the game, after having set the rules (unwittingly), is next to impossible. He'll be seen by her as "getting weird."

Now, what happens next is basically miscommunication and human nature. The guy lavishes her with attention, and women love attention. So, they take advantage of this. Sometimes it's done consciously, but most of the time I think it's done just because women love attention. But, at some point, it becomes clear to the woman what the guy is doing. At that point, she either rationalizes it all away and lives in denial, or she gets upset and the whole thing comes to a head. (Eventually, it comes to a head no matter what.)

When it comes to a head, the woman is mad at the guy for having an "ulterior motive." She can't blame herself for leading him on and taking advantage of his willingness to show her attention. That would make her a bad person.

The guy, meanwhile, is mad at the girl for not recognizing him as being "such a great guy." He can't blame himself for being a wuss and swallowing whole the idea that there is something "dirty" or "unwholesome" about sex and valuing a woman for her nature as a sexual being. That would make him an idiot.

Basically, the only solution is this. When you meet a woman, if you find her attractive, treat her as an attractive woman that you would like to take out on a date. Flirt with her. If she's not interested, then forget about it. If she's worth being friends with, and you want a friend, then by all means go ahead and be friends with her. Maybe she'll introduce you to another woman at some point whom you will find attractive. But don't push. It doesn't work.

Above all, don't send mixed signals: don't be a "great guy" to some woman you want to date whom you're not dating. It's fine to do favors for friends or for girlfriends, but make sure that both of you recognize that the two of you are one or the other, and that your assessment of the relationship is mutual.

thrway_1000 · 2015-08-28T20:19:38+00:00

I first heard the term back in the early 90s when I was in college. The term then was meant to disparage a guy who was a sucker. Usually it was a guy who was interested in some woman that had no interest in him. He would make it obvious that he was interested and usually it was pretty clear she was not interested in him. The sucker part came in that he would stick around and the woman would basically use/manipulate him, knowing what he wanted and knowing he would never get it. She would get him to help her move, take her out for food, buy things for her, and so on all in the hopes of getting an in. She would use his "friendship" to get what she wanted while giving nothing in return. Not even real friendship. Most of the guys around him would make fun of him for being a dupe, when there were lots of other women around to choose from.

Now a days it's kind of flipped. Like the guy, who's getting used, is somehow manipulating her. It's funny how ideas change over time and who uses them. Back in the day the guys would use it to make fun of guys being stupid for "love". Now its used to disparage guys for wanting too much from a woman. Basically, its the same just now somehow the one being used is seen to be in a position of power instead of a fool being played by his emotions.

Ultramegasaurus · 2015-08-28T19:45:38+00:00

The friendzone and nice guy hatred are rationalization attempts by women. They always portray themselves as oh so civilized and virtuous, seeking only kindness and trust. Then they meet a guy who they, as civilized women, ought to like but they feel indifference or disdain. How to solve this conflict? Easy, accuse him of being evil and attach traits to him which make him "objectively" unloveable.

derpylord143 · 2015-08-28T20:00:26+00:00

The friend-zone was originally used as a joke, its been twisted now, guys and girls generally use it in different situations and for different reasons, there are 2 scenarios were guys use it imo

1: When guys are brought up to believe "being nice to someone you like will mean they might start dating you" then it fails, women don't normally go for the nice guy thing, or at least that's what I've witnessed, so then the guys who are brought up to believe that say "yeah i was friend-zoned, I don't get it, I did everything women told me to do (as women are societies main socializers of children...), so that I could get the girl sorta thing but it isn't working look at Brad and Josh they have different girls every week and they are fucking assholes" and it's only started occurring because guys are brought up to think being nice and helping girls at every turn will get the girl sorta thing at least every now and then, this falls through time and time again, say after 10 years the guy questions it and is treated with contempt and called a "self-entitled prick". If feminists wanted the "nice guy syndrome" and "friend zone" in this sense to go, they should explain why it doesn't work, and teach guys how to actually obtain a partner. Think of it like, if you spent 30 years working on a piece of research based on quantum physics only to have quantum physics debunked, you would be somewhat upset because the time and effort you put in was now wasted as the core of the theory is now broken... the same applies to boys, they are taught to be nice to girls, it'll get girls to like them etc. (which is true, to the extent of friends in most cases) when this doesn't play through after 10 years of trying to get the girl sorta thing and they say "what the fuck is going on, why don't they like me" they are treated with contempt and are said to be expecting womans feelings or sex, which isn't necessarily the case, people don't look at it like "are they moaning about the system" instead they look at it like "they are entitled pricks who they should be allowed the women's body".

2: guys use it as a joke when other guys are part of a unrequited love situation to take the piss out of their friend. much like MrDoradus said.

Women can like wise be split into two groups based on circumstances: 1: they are friendzoned and they get upset about it to their friends. 2: they call guys who do the same as the females "entitled pricks who they should be allowed the women's body"<---- note usually feminists who dont understand hypocrisy

That being said we do get our self-entitled pricks, but for an epidemic of them to appear like feminists claim is ludicrous, the ones we do have that are actually them though, are usually either really skilled at what they do, or are really shit at it and the shit ones do whine and moan, but have no one to do it to as no one likes them usually. on the other end, this epidemic is actually guys starting to wake up and smell the coffee of the bullshit that feminists have been spewing to the masses about how we should behave and trying to manipulate us...

chocoboat · 2015-08-29T03:03:21+00:00

The ironic thing is, women complain about being friendzoned as well, yet they are never met with the same vitriol. They are coddled and told that the men who rejected them don't know what they are missing and/or suck.

Pretty much. It all boils down to man-hating. Shitty people want to hate on men for doing a normal human thing such as liking someone who doesn't like you back, but see it as a normal thing when women do it.

And where did this whole "entitlement" argument come from?

Here's the thing, there are two entirely different groups of people being given the same label of "nice guy".

First is the actual nice guy, a little timid and shy and unconfident. He tries to be a good person, he's kind and caring, but for whatever reason, women aren't interested. Sometimes he feels bad and wonders why decent people like himself can't get a date while scumbags seem to have no problem finding a girlfriend. He usually doesn't talk about it, and if he does it'll probably be online.

Second is the actually-entitled asshole who's only interested in sex, and thinks that he has earned sex and is owed it when he follows social customs. He gets angry and rude when he doesn't get to have sex. "What the fuck is wrong with that bitch, I bought her dinner and complimented her all night, and after all that she doesn't want to put out? Stupid whore, didn't she see what a nice guy I am to do all that for her?"

These guys are a small minority, but sadly they do exist and they're out there. And the thing is... this is the ONLY person women ever hear "I'm a nice guy" from, as he treats her like shit and acts entitled to sex. The 10 other guys who asked her out and she said no? They went quietly on their way.

So to women, 100% of the time when they hear "nice guy" it means "entitled asshole". So when a woman sees someone say he's a nice guy on the internet, she thinks it's one of those people and talks shit about him.

tiqr · 2015-08-28T19:07:29+00:00

I agree with you in most respects. Especially this:

What I'm getting from this is that this is literally how women see us, as non-emotional beings who literally want to do nothing but have sex. We clearly don't want love or companionship. We aren't morally ascendant enough to want those things.

Both men and women perpetuate this myth that men only want sex. That just isn't true. Men want companionship, love, and validation. It just so happens that they are socially conditions to believe that sex is the best way for them to get validation. Because women are the "gatekeepers" of sex, if a man receives it from a woman, that means he is worthy.

Of course the above is nonsense. A boy doesn't become a man when he has sex. A man is made from the content of his character, not the attention that women give him. But movies and televsion repeat the trope enough that eventually everyone comes to believe it.

The "friendzone" things comes from situations where young men try desperately to earn the affection of a woman they like. They do what television and film teach them: be supportive, be kind, be there for her, then make some grand gesture to show your true feelings and she'll be smitten. The only problem with that approach is that it doesn't work in real life.

I think the entitlement debate comes from the varying perspectives. From the young man's perspective, he's done everything right. He's been her friend and confidante, and then he's made the confession of love, and yet is rejected. From the woman's perspective, one of her male friends in whom she has little romantic interest declared his love, and is not upset that it is not reciprocated.

I don't think friendzoned guys are 'entitled'. They are just suffering from the sting of rejection mixed with the betrayal of popular culture "lying" to them about how to win a woman's affection.

MrDoradus · 2015-08-28T19:26:31+00:00

I have a very different view on the term friendzone and how it's used and I do believe it wasn't used in this context at first. For instance, I've mostly seen it used by other men to jokingly describe a friendship their friend, or any other man, has with a woman friend in which he obviously wants something more out of it and the woman views him as a friend only. The guy sticks around and does many things for this girl, gives her gifts, pays her attention in hopes that she'll view him as something more, but she never does. It isn't a manipulative thing, but a blissful and wishful ignorance type of relationship from the guy's part. But yeah, the term is more of a joke than a grand philosophical standpoint on relationship dynamics.

But it wouldn't surprise me that some feminists (quite probably) took the term and made it into a description of a manipulative stalker shitlord who pretends to be friends with a girl in order to have sex with her. Apparently they used a well known term again, disregarded it's original meaning and turned it into something that suits their narrative of "men suck and are creepy".

And yeah it's really hard to become intimate with a woman if you're not her friend at first. "Bby wan sum fuk?" pick up line to a stranger hardly ever works as an effective way to start a meaningful relationship. But you can always count on feminists to make men look bad even in normal courting dynamics of men becoming friends first with women they like and getting to know them better.

MRA-automatron-2kb · 2015-08-29T04:14:30+00:00

Thats a good topic. I grew up reading in newspapers and magazines: "men want sex whereas women want love"

As you say, this is insulting.

I think women are projecting when they say that. As if they want to make the man the dirty one and themselves the pure ones. I think a lot of the problems with relationships are caused by women's projections and delusions.

As other posters wrote, we did what they asked, then they date the bad boys and then they cry and say (phoned me) "where are all the good men?"

This is really confusing.

I'm trying not be nice to women but last week I was 2 times.

It's hard to be an MRA.

Title	Is there some underlying message I'm missing with the friendzone dialogue?
Author	Jon-Indra
Upvotes	11
Comments	21
Date	August 28, 2015 6:50 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3irbn8/is_there_some_underlying_message_im_missing_with/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/is-there-some-underlying-message-im-missing-with.972387 https://theredarchive.com/post/972387

Comments