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Man cannot get vasectomy without (estranged) wife's approval - Has to wait until after divorce

ponchato

October 28, 2017
43 upvotes
/r/MensRights
https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/79bcgg/update_doctor_refuses_vasectomy_without_wifes/
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Post Information
Title Man cannot get vasectomy without (estranged) wife's approval - Has to wait until after divorce
Author

ponchato

Upvotes 43
Comments 36
Date October 28, 2017 10:58 PM UTC
(8 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/79d6s7/man_cannot_get_vasectomy_without_estranged_wifes/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/man-cannot-get-vasectomy-without-estranged-wifes.1174651
https://theredarchive.com/post/1174651
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Comments

[–]ash_park 25 points26 points27 points 8 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

mybodymychoice

Wait, that's only for women

[–]POSVT 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

You do realize women frequently run into similar issues when seeking sterilization right? This isn't really a gender issue

[–]st00dup 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

You do realize women frequently run into similar issues when seeking sterilization right? This isn't really a gender issue

Except women can decide to abort a pregnancy or give the child up for adoption while men have NO choice at all. They can pay for the child they didn't ask for or go to jail.

I'd call that a gender issue.

[–]POSVT 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

That definitely makes the context worse for men, but at the same time the primary issue of seeking sterilization & barriers to that is not a gendered issue, both men and women experience this regularly.

I do want reproductive rights for men ala LPS or something like that, and again it does intersect with contraceptive rights but these are separate issues IMO.

[–]st00dup 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Both men and women might experience it regularly but the point is irrelevant.

The fact is it can have a massive impact on men's lives (18 years of child support and even alimony payments) while having a negligible impact on women's lives.

That is the very definition of a gender issue.

[–]POSVT -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

It's not a negligible impact on womens lives either, just because they have more options.

Reproductive rights is a gender issue, availability of contraception can be as well, but the specific issue being addressed in this discussion is the requirement of spousal consent for sterilization. That is something both men and women face that causes significant frustration and problems for both. Spousal consent and barriers to sterilization are not gendered issues.

[–]st00dup -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

You are obviously autistic.

[–]POSVT 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I don't think so, and I'm fairly sure I'd recognize it, but what makes you think that? I'd be happy to discuss it with you, or answer any questions you might have.

On the other hand if you just wanted to insult me, then I think that intent on top of the poor execution speaks for itself.

[–]st00dup -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Sorry if my intent wasn't clear: it was an insult. Autistic people often have trouble understanding social situations so I understand your confusion. But maybe that's why you're so easily tricked by feminist arguments about 'gender' and 'equality' too?

[–]POSVT 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Not really any confusion, I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I will give you some free advice though - if you want to insult someone, you should first make sure they care about your opinion of them, or at the very least have some regard for what you think.

By the way, where did you get your medical degree, since austism spectrum disorder is a medical diagnosis?

What feminist arguments exactly am I being swayed or tricked by? Feminist arguments, in my experience, are categorised by an ideological gender bent which insists their side must be the victim and ignores the objective reality of the situation (eg feels > reals). The only person here using that style of argument isn't me.

[–]st00dup1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Funny. You say you don't care then proceed to write a detailed and lengthy response. Like feminists you say one thing and mean another.

I am quite happy to be rude to you because you are a danger to men's rights. You say spousal consent is not a gender issue because women also face the same rules. Yet as a result of this policy only men face the possibilty of >18 years of child support or alimony payments.

Only a personal who is mind-bogglingly stubborn or autistic could divide this into a black and white, letter of the law type view and not see the connection between cause and effect.

Why do you feel that men are so worthless that they should work for one or two weeks per month to support a woman's choice to have a baby while having no say in it themselves? Of course I should insult you. This is a mens rights reddit and you are treating people like idiots.

[–]POSVT2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm a teacher at heart, and while I doubt you'll listen to anything not in lockstep with you, there's always a chance. Other people might read and learn something as well. However, regarding your opinion of me? No, I don't care because your opinions don't matter to me. I'm sorry if that was confusing for you.

If anything is a danger to mens rights, it's victim complex ideologues who refuse to see the reality of a situation if it can be twisted into a gender issue. To claim that I'm a danger is a great illustration of how disingenous/intellectually dishonest you're being here.

Again you ignore anything that doesn't fit your views and strawman the rest. For those reading along - this is not how you argue, because it makes you look stupid and doesn't contribute to the discussion. I'll repeat it again, since you didn't listen the first time: spousal consent is not a gendered issue. There is no valid argumemt to the contrary. The consequences of unwanted pregnancies can certainly be severe for men (as they are for women) but this is a distinct issue. Lack of a vasectomy does not lock you into 18 years of wage slavery. It is possible (and better) to fight for mens reproductive rights and not be bogged down into non gendered issues while doing so. I've posted several times to that effect about reproductive rights without having to rant about side issues both men and women face. It's orthogonal to the point. Is it useful to go on tangents about assumptions of pedophilia while discussing the draft? No! Because while they are loosely related via male demonization/disposability, they are still seperate issues amd all you accomplish is muddying the discussion.

Only a gender ideologue lile a feminist would blatantly ignore facts and try to twist reality like this. It's not black and white, letter of the law stuff...nor is it cause and effect. You're just blatantly wrong here.

Please quote where I've stated I believe men are worthless, or admit that you made this accusation up. Again for those reading along, this is also a bad tactic that illustrates you're arguing in bad faith, from an emotional standpoint, and that you don't want to have an actual conversation.

If you feel you should insult me, that clearly says more about you than me. As for treating people like idots, I'll also need a source for that or kindly admit you made it up as well. If you feel I'm treating you like an idiot now, I'm not - but please remember this post is about teaching, which you're pretty clearly in need of.

[–]st00dup1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Blah, blah, blah. Whatever. You are just a feminist troll.

[–]POSVT2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sure I am. That's why I support mens rights and have posts on this sub going back to when I created this account 2+ years ago. Mensrights was one of, if not #1, my first ever posts, I'd been a lurker for a while but was inspired to contribute.

But I'm really just a feminist troll. Thats why I'm always posting about le patriarchy in feminist subs. Oh wait, no, that ones not true actually.

You're the problem with this board and the movement. You are a gender ideologue. You're a gender feminist is MRA clothing. Hopefully others can take note and RES tag you so we can all just downvote your grabage wherever it appears in the future without having to read whatever drivel you've decided to spout.

[–]mikesteane 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I didn't realise that. Can you expand on this and provide a link please?

[–]POSVT 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

This page has a good breakdown. The TL;DR version is that there can't be a law requiring spousal consent, nor can public hospitals have a policy requiring it. Individual physicians and private organizations are not bound by this rule and can set (mostly) whatever requirements they wish.

It's highly regional as well. In my area, no OBs require it for tubals, nor do urologists require it for vasecomties. If you go to the next state over (NM) you'll find it's much more popular in some areas.

Additionally both men and women are often denied sterilization due to their age and the chance that they may change their mind later on. Doctors have been sued over that so they're cautious. Even if a suit is thrown out the first day in court, much of the damage is already done and will follow them for the remainder of their career (similar, if much less severe than a false sexual assault allegation).

This is slightly worse for men, since a vas is our only reliable long acting contraception. For women, long acting reversible contraceptives like IUDs can be a superior choice compared to sterilization (IMO anyway, and in the opinion of many OBs I've worked with).

[–]MagicTampon3 points 8 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

That page is shit.

Any discussion that does not go over law on a state-by-state basis, or per hospital policy, isn't worth a grain of salt.

Unless there is a Supreme Court ruling on male sterilization / vasectomy (there is one on tubal ligation, and the article makes no mention of a Supreme Court decision), Federal law has nothing to do with it.

[–]POSVT 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That page is not shit, you're just being unreasonable. 50 seperate irrelevant discussions are meaningless when any state law requiring spousal consent would be unconstitutional. There aren't any state laws that I'm aware of for exactly that reason. If you'd like I could list out all 50 states and just put "no laws requiring spousal consent - unconstitutional" after each one. Asking for a per hospital discussion is flat out disingenuous.

There's not a significant enough difference between male and female sterilisation to cover one but not the other. That is to say, if one is upheld by the supreme court the other is protected as well. No state law would survive the challenge - though if you know of a case that has I'd like to read about it, especially how the managed to get around that pesky 14th amendment.

Federal law doesn't have much to do with it, you're right. But that's because constitutional law supersedes it.

[–]mikesteane 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Excellent answer. Thanks.

[–]POSVT 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No problem, glad you found it informative.

[–]circlhat 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The page you posted says women won the right to not need to ask, perhaps you should check your source

[–]POSVT 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That page was the best writeup, which is why I linked it. Regardless, men are covered under the same ruling. Thats one reason why there are no state laws requiring spousal consent.

[–]SpikedGIraffe 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

My friend wanted to get Snipped. Every Doctor he went to flat out declined him. He was Late 20's and single.

Made perfect sense to decline him, he has a lot of time to change his mind. Since we have Public Healthcare it makes perfect sense to decline to avoid also possibly having to pay for a reversal.

Other friends and family who have been snipped all did it after they were done having kids.

I can't see a reason to decline a man the procedure though if he already has 4 kids.

[–]furchfur 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think this happens quite a lot in the USA. In the UK a doctor would not be allowed to ask for permission of a wife. If he did ask he could be struck of the UK medical register. A doctor is not allowed to disclose medical issues between even a husband and wife.

In the UK it is very straight forward to get a vasectomy.

[–]ponchato[S] 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

tl;dr guy has 4 kids and doesn't want any more, tries to get vasectomy, doctor says "no can do without approval from wife" (wife is estranged and they're getting a divorce - that signature won't happen), guy goes to 4 other doctors who all refuse him. Finally after nearly a year, once the divorce is finalized, he can get the procedure done.

"Why did the doctors refuse him?"

Because urologists have been, successfully, sued by the spouse of their patient for tubal ligation or vasectomies.

"So what's the issue?"

The issue is 1) the responses on the original thread with basically no concern for this guy's bodily autonomy, unlike in female-victim threads and 2) no general response from the public, again, unlike in female-victim cases.

Could you imagine what would happen if a doctor refused to perform an abortion for a woman without the consent of her husband? The nation would lose its collective mind. But if a guy wants to make a choice about his own body and his reproductive rights... you know, eh. He's just a guy, who cares?

[–]POSVT 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Commenters in the original thread did make the bodily autonomy point.

Also, women seeking sterilization can run into similar problems, on top of doctors not being willing to operate on younger women (which I generally don't have any issue with). There's not usually any more outrage there than there was here IME. The abortion comparison is also inappropriate. There's no inherent risk to your life or damage to your body from intact vas deferens. There's also not an extrmely short legal timeline to do the procedure.

Finally, this is not even remotely a bodily autonomy issue. His bodily autonomy isn't being infringed. As far as reproductive rights, yes, but again this issue is also a thing for women (ie not something specifically men are saddled with). Granted, men generally have absolutely no reproductive rights but still.

[–]Damen_aka_Ron_Ron 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

2) no general response from the public, again, unlike in female-victim cases.

The post is in /r/legaladvice, not /r/TwoXChromosomes which has a bigger/wider audience.

Could you imagine what would happen if a doctor refused to perform an abortion for a woman without the consent of her husband? The nation would lose its collective mind.

Yeah because a women went all the way towards the Supreme Court to get the right to do this and won her case setting the precedent which would make a doctor's refusing her abortion without the consent of her husband illegal.

As /u/posvt mention his comment to someone else with the "If this was a wumenz!@!!" circlejerk comment like yours, both women and men have to get consent from their spouse to get a vasctemony or tubes tied and is related strictly to state's individual physicians/physical organizations.

This type of comment is why /r/menrights isn't taken serious by men because you guys circlejerk just as hard as /r/TwoXChromosomes.

[–]circlhat 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

But women don't need permission, perhaps you should check your own sources, men do, women don't and women are saying they don't need permission

[–]Damen_aka_Ron_Ron 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

But women don't need permission

Yes they do you moron. You can even google stories of women telling their stories of needing their husband consent to get their tubes tied or reading articles on the issue.

Story 1

Story 2

Article 1

Actually educate yourself before sprouting nonsense.

[–]circlhat 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Not legally not as often as men and not anymore as these are old, Try again though

[–]Damen_aka_Ron_Ron 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Not legally not as often as men

Have statistic to support this claim? Or you just pulling this out of your ass? Bet it's the latter.

not anymore as these are old

Yes it still happens, stop spewing bullshit with no evidence to backup your arguments.

[–]Tedesche 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

the responses on the original thread with basically no concern for this guy's bodily autonomy

Why are you talking about? The top comment mentions his bodily autonomy.

[–]mrwhibbley 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I had the same problem. I went to one doctor that was going to do a vasectomy and a required my wife's signature. I never ended up going through it anyway. It wouldn't of been a problem, my wife would've signed. I just felt it was unbelievable that they would've required a signature

[–]DRU-ZOD1980 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It took me 3 doctors to find one that didn't want my wife's signature. Don't get me wrong we talked about it and she was onboard but I wasn't about to patronize someone who wanted me as a full grown adult to get a permission slip.

[–]rocelot7 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

My main issue is that a doctor may feel it unethical for a partner to unilaterally sterilize themself. I don't think we should force doctors to perform procedures they disagree with, or put them at risk, or even just damage a relationship. But at the same time its their body, and bodily autonomy should only be prescribed to who inhabits such body.

I do think there is a discussion about this, but this is a relationship (more accurately a marriage) issue. Not a gender one, at least it should be.

[–]samsc2 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Don't even understand why he bothered to tell any of the doctors he was married. It's none of their concern.

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