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My debate topic. Oh boy. (Bottom)

Pnspi2

April 14, 2017
72 upvotes
/r/MensRights
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Post Information
Title My debate topic. Oh boy. (Bottom)
Author

Pnspi2

Upvotes 72
Comments 20
Date April 14, 2017 6:36 PM UTC
(9 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/65ebuy/my_debate_topic_oh_boy_bottom/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/my-debate-topic-oh-boy-bottom.925820
https://theredarchive.com/post/925820
Red Pill terms in post
feminism

Comments

[–]Olengo02 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I mean ironically yes paper is better for the environment then plastic because the paper traps carbon already harvested by trees - if the trees died naturally the carbon they collected will be released back into the atmosphere.

Seriously though, good luck with your debate!

[–]heimdahl81 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

In the spirit of debate, I disagree. Recycling plastic is much less harmful to the environment than recycling paper. Also, plastic can be produced from corn which is much more rapidly replenished than trees (of course hemp paper would be even better but is practically illegal due to drug law).

[–]TracyMorganFreeman 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Recycling plastic is more energy intensive though.

Then again energy wise IIRC only recycling metal is worthwhile, and environmentally speaking given the energy sources used, most recycling is not worthwhile.

[–]Becks91 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

deleted What is this?

[–]TracyMorganFreeman 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That has to do more with damage control than recycling.

[–]Olengo02 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You bring up some very valid points. Furthermore seeing 'in the spirit of debate' has restored in me some hope for humanity since honestly that is the first time on the internet I see that.

As for the points, they are both valid. However, nothing stops us from being conservative with both paper and plastic, and due to there different properties both will still be used. If we simply recycle both and not waste both then really we can't go wrong.

Anyway, back to men's rights :)

[–]the_unseen_one 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The flipside there is that corn is horribly bad for the soil, to the point that it is probably one of the worst crops we grow. More than that, making plastics from mono crops requires a continuation of our huge industrial agriculture set up which is raping the environment, while properly maintained forests with replanting actually helps the environment. Not only do the trees not need as much maintenance or fertilization, but you help expand natural woodland and preserve the wilderness with it.

True, recycling plastics is less harmful, but not all plastics can be recycled, and they can not be recycled very well since the polymer chains degrade. Paper has the same issue with degradation of a different kind, but at the end of the day it can still biodegrade and be a carbon trap even when it can no longer be recycled.

Plastics are an amazing invention, but I really think they are also one of our biggest fucking mistakes due to the environmental impact. I would love if we started a multi-billion dollar, international organization dedicated to finding ways to make plastics safer and more sustainable. We aren't getting rid of them, we can't, but we can at least make them suck less.

[–]MagicTampon 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

~e0UQ6snG(-Adezq%93960vM7+;,t8t<h:WoO2p$%<-c5#eod@F3#Tb*(9vHF[KG%0h&3K!C&(fpB>GpzekRfmk+agTbAQJR!rC+T&,B(.dETtWi)gqksB0t:Py:81:+xW4#)r0eHNe8[tp(+%TPW8thAh:aa.5UAZx

[–]Mallago 16 points17 points18 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Perfect. These are the kinds of opportunities we need. It'll take courage, but nailing this and coming out as an MRA could be such a great statement. We need to start being open and public about what and why we are.

[–]Wswanson001 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That could actually be a tough one. One could argue that without the "Feminist" movement (as defined by pop culture) the imminent backlash felt towards that movement would not have brought light to the MRM. Essentially, without the existence of evil, good cannot exist because it cannot be defined.

Is this CX debate or L/D?

[–]William__F0ster 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't see any problem there.

[–]infinitecharger 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is easy. The debate topic here is speaking about modernity, or the 'present time.' This means that you can easily justify switching the meaning of feminism to be "that which even 'old school feminists' disagree with today." This is to say, that the current "feminism" is radically different than the old school feminism. The former is much more geared towards women superiority and infringing on the rights of men, and the latter is actually about equality.

In your debate, all you have to do is focus on the former and you'll be technically correct. So first outline the definitions of both the former and latter feminism, and then, because of how the debate topic was semantically worded, you have the intellectual right to only focus on attacking current feminism. You may even compliment and praise old school feminism while doing so and you'll still fall within the parameters of the debate topic that you're allowed.

To win, all you need to do is attack make oppression, since that would be the definition that you would have already established for current feminism.

[–]the_unseen_one 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Damn, good luck with that man. I'd hate to have to defend MRA in any academic setting today, as rational debate has largely been replaced with feelings based rhetoric. I'd recommend making another thread running through your sources, ideas, and topics so you can make your cause stronger. Even if you think you got it, a few dozen more pairs of eyes would not hurt, and making your debate ironclad may even sway some others to support your view.

[–]TracyMorganFreeman 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Today's society?

Was it ever relevant, or has it always been a bunch of opportunists either taking credit for the inevitable or shaming others into complying with their personal sensibilities?

[–]Olengo02 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Well first wave feminism (the suffragette movement) actually did a lot of good and was a very reasonable movement. Ironically they never campaigned for equally, all they wanted was to give women the privilege of the vote.

[–]girlwriteswhat 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They were far from reasonable. Let's look at some legal norms they changed:

Child custody:

Prior to the mid 1800s, men got the kids in a divorce. This is because he was solely financially responsible for them.

Caroline Norton in the UK convinced the establishment to change the system such that children of "tender years" (under 8 or so, later expanded to all minors) rightly belonged with the mother. Of course, dad still got stuck with the cost of financially supporting the kids's household, regardless of whether his ex wife was wealthy in her own right.

Marital property:

Prior to the mid 1800s, women handed some (not all) of their property to their husbands upon marriage. In return, they were granted an entitlement to his financial support, rights as his agent to purchase goods on his credit, the right to legal redress if he failed to support her adequately (or used her "portion" not to her benefit), dower rights to his real property, and immunity from prosecution/penalty even on debts she solely accrued.

First wave feminists changed things such that a married woman held her income and property "femme sole" (as if unmarried), meaning her husband (and children) had no right or claim to it (in fact, her husband had no right to even see documentation of it). Yet all of the benefits and entitlements of marriage for women remained in place. A woman could invest her money unwisely and go into debt, and her husband was held responsible for repayment. If she refused to pay her taxes, her husband could go to prison for tax evasion, because paying the taxes on her income and property was still legally his responsibility. She could still accrue debt in his name. She still maintained the right to demand he support her and the children, even if she was wealthy, and had the right to sue him if she was forced to spend a penny of her own money on her own upkeep, let alone his or the children's. Dower rights remained in place, meaning she could sell a house she owned without his permission or knowledge, but he could not sell a house he owned without her consent.

Incidentally, feminists in New York State in 1910 were claiming that these changes didn't go far enough. They insisted that rights regarding children discriminated against mothers, and should be equalized. Of course, by then, the Tender Years doctrine was in place (favoring women), and within marriage mothers were considered equal custodians and guardians of their children. The only part of the law that discriminated against women was regarding minor children's property and income, which the law rightly placed in the care of the father (the parent financially responsible for supporting said children). Feminists, however, wanted women to have equal control over their children's money, despite legally bearing no financial responsibility to them whatsoever.

Contracts:

By the late 1800s, feminists, in conjunction with changes to marital property law, won the right for married women to enter into contracts in their own names. Of course, at the time, their husbands were still legally liable for any debts their wives might accrue, so it became common practice for lenders to require a male cosigner on mortgages and loans. That is, they wanted to identify a male who would take responsibility for the debt if she defaulted, and have access to his credit rating before lending money. This avoided the inevitable sticky legal mess of locating the man responsible after the fact and getting their money back.

Imagine if your spouse could walk into a bank and be given a credit card in her name without your knowledge or consent, and then when the bill came due you were held responsible for paying it.

Incidentally, by the 1960s, feminists were complaining that the practice of requiring a male cosigner arbitrarily discriminated against women and it was made illegal. Changes ameliorating men's responsibility to repay their wives' debts came later, mostly via case law.

None of those things sound particularly reasonable to me.

[–]TracyMorganFreeman 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Susan B Anthony maligned "15 million inferior black men" getting the vote before her.

[–]Olengo02 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I think that was second wave. The first wave was almost exclusively in the U.K. as far as I know, and hey they at least welcomed debate and so on. There main point was since women maintained the industry in the world war therefore they can be trusted and are reliable, and deserve the vote.

[–]TracyMorganFreeman 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

B Anthony along with Catherine Norton both preceded WW1. They didn't want to be subject to the draft though, and felt perfectly comfortable shaming men into volunteering with the white feather campaign.

They wanted power without responsibility, which explains why the first wave was primarily upper class white women.

[–]Olengo02 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The biggest irony here is women got the vote when conservatives got in power since the conservatives thought (correctly at first) that these women would vote for them, and labor was strongly against women voting as it would have given so much more power to the conservatives...

If only they had known...

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