Questions - I am new

duhhhh · 2020-10-20T03:48:00+00:00

are there particular feminist groups/narratives that you find particularly damaging or threatening.

Personally, I find rape and DV narratives to be especially bad.

For statistical reporting, rape has been carefully defined as forced penetration of the victim in most of the world. Please listen to this feminist professor Mary P Koss explain that a woman raping a man isn't rape. Hear her explain in her own voice just a few years ago - https://clyp.it/uckbtczn. I encourage you to listen to what she is saying. (Really. Listen to it! Think about it from a man's perspective.)

She is considered the foremost expert on sexual violence in the US. She is the one that started the 1 in 4 American college women is sexually assaulted myth by counting all sorts of things the "victims" didn't. A man misinterpreting a situation going in for a kiss and then backing off when she pulls back, puts up her hand, or turns her cheek is counted as a sexual assault on a woman even if she doesn't think it was. As you hear in her own words the woman's studies professor and trusted expert that literally wrote the book on measuring prevalence of sexual violence does not call a woman drugging and riding a man bareback rape ... or even label it sexual assault ... it is merely "unwanted contact"

You see she has been saying this for decades and was instrumental in creating the methodologies most (including the US and many other government agencies around the world) use for gathering rape statistics. E.g.

Detecting the Scope of Rape : A Review of Prevalence Research Methods. Author: Mary P. Koss. Journal of Interpersonal Violence Volume: 8 Issue: 2 Dated: (June 1993) Page: 206

Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman.

Src: http://boysmeneducation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Koss-1993-Detecting-the-Scope-of-Rape-a-review-of-prevalence-research-methods-see-p.-206-last-paragraph.pdf

She is an advisor to the CDC, FBI, Congress, and researchers around the world and promoting the idea that men cannot be raped by women. There was a proposal to explicitly include forced envelopment in the latest FBI update to the definition of rape but after a closed door meeting with her and N.O.W. lobbiests, it mysteriously disappeared. She has many many followers and fellow researchers that follow her methodology and quote her studies. That is where most people get the idea rape is just a man on woman crime. Men are fairly rarely penetrated and it is almost always by another man.

Most people talking about sexual violence refer to the "rape" (penetrated) numbers as influenced by Mary Koss's methodologies, but in the US the CDC also gathered the data for "made to penetrate" (enveloped) in the 2010, 2011, and 2015 NISVS studies.

As an example lets look at the 2011 survey numbers: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6308a1.htm

an estimated 1.6% of women (or approximately 1.9 million women) were raped in the 12 months before taking the survey

and

The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.

vs

an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey

and

Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators. In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%),

So if made to penetrate happens each year as much as rape then by most people's assumed definition of rape then men are half of rape victims. If 99% of rapists are men and 83% of "made to penetrators" are women ... then an estimated 42% of the perpetrators of nonconsensual sex in 2011 were women.

But since made to penetrate is not rape, the narrative is that men are rapists and women are victims and boys/men that are victims are victims of men. Therefore most of the gender studies folks create programs to teach men not to rape (e.g. /r/science/comments/3rmapx/science_ama_series_im_laura_salazar_associate/). Therefore there is justification for having gendered rape support services which means almost none for males victimized by females. These misleading stats are ammo to tell men to shut up about rape because 1 in 5 women are raped vs "only" 1 in 71 men and nearly all the men were raped by other men...

And before you think that was just one study, it wasn't. The prior year numbers have been really close between the sexes most years.

2010 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/cdc_nisvs_ipv_report_2013_v17_single_a.pdf

2012 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/NISVS-StateReportBook.pdf

2015 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/2015data-brief508.pdf

Scientific American - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known

data revealed that over one year, men and women were equally likely to experience nonconsensual sex, and most male victims reported female perpetrators. Over their lifetime, 79 percent of men who were “made to penetrate” someone else (a form of rape, in the view of most researchers) reported female perpetrators. Likewise, most men who experienced sexual coercion and unwanted sexual contact had female perpetrators.

And non CDC study...

A recent study of youth found, strikingly, that females comprise 48 percent of those who self-reported committing rape or attempted rape at age 18-19.

The Atlantic - https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

Another non CDC study...

a 2014 study of 284 men and boys in college and high school found that 43 percent reported being sexually coerced, with the majority of coercive incidents resulting in unwanted sexual intercourse. Of them, 95 percent reported only female perpetrators.

And another non CDC study...

National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found in a sample of 43,000 adults little difference in the sex of self-reported sexual perpetrators. Of those who affirmed that they had ‘ever forced someone to have sex with you against their will,’ 43.6 percent were female and 56.4 percent were male.”

Time - http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers

when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).

If my information is not enough, try reading these threads by problem_redditor with lots more studies and references.

https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/i0j2g9/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys/

https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/i6sdli/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys_part/

https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/iavcnv/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys_part/

Just maybe, rape isn't a gendered issue and we should stop treating it like one. But if we acknowledge that, then we would have to point the blame at "rapists", rather than "men".

And it isn't just the US.

Feminists lobbied against gender neutral rape laws in India, so women are not rapists and men victimized by women are not rape victims. https://www.timesofindia.com/india/Activists-join-chorus-against-gender-neutral-rape-laws/articleshow/18840879.cms

So a woman physically forcing sex on a man is not a rape in India, but a man breaking an engagement after having sex with his fiancee is a rape.

Israeli feminists were concerned if a woman raping a man was recognized by law, a man could threaten to make false accusations against the woman after the man raped her in order to keep her from reporting. Apparently false accusations are a problem for women, so they fixed this by blocking the legislation that would have made rape a gender neutral crime.

https://m.jpost.com/Israel/Womens-groups-Cancel-law-charging-women-with-rape

So blaming men for rape doesn't acknowledge the problem. Rape is a people problem.

Even if you only care about women, you should still stop women from raping because the majority of men convicted of raping women were sexually violated by adult women when they were boys. Multiple studies in the US, UK, and Canada have shown this.

http://empathygap.uk/?p=1993#_Toc498111528

So women not raping, and rape by women being acknowledged as traumatic and treated with compassion, would probably stop a lot of women from getting raped in the future.

ApprehensiveMail8 · 2020-10-20T03:42:35+00:00

Welcome! And thank you for what appears to be sincere concern.

Right to equal protection under sex laws.

Historically, rape was defined as something that was done by a male to a female, and in some places the legal definition of the crime is still blatantly gender biased. And even in places where male victims are recognized, the vast majority of identified perpetrators are still male and identified victims still female.

I'm not aware of any state that has made any effort to try to think of a definition that distributes the burden equally, such that half of the recognized perpetrators are female, while extending half of the benefit to male victims.

It might not be that difficult. For example, what if we included unwanting touching of male genitals, and not just vaginal penetration?

FullTimeUnplucker · 2020-10-20T01:23:11+00:00

Newborn male genital mutilation being legal.

Bojack35 · 2020-10-20T01:44:32+00:00

Check the FAQ for a comprehensive answer. As a brief summary; court discrimination is not just family courts but general sentencing. There are state funded projects to get more women into STEM while ignoring that less men get into higher education. In general 'progressive' social funding is mostly focused on women, men make up 1/3 of reported domestic violence cases yet receive less than 5% of funding. I wont go on but the general point is that the welfare of women is put above the welfare of men at a systemic level, yet men are bashed with the false notion they are privileged.
Personally I think it paints MRA in a bad light, but like anything there is going to be a crossover. MGTOW I see as mostly men who are basically saying fuck it and equivalent to the 'kill all men' feminists. A small but vocal and angry minority who are more making a point than living it. Incel is essentially an insult that you can demean someone's opinion based on their sexual activity, like me condemning a feminist as either a whore or a virgin. Meaningless insults that should not have the time of day.
Yes feminism is a broad spectrum, that kind of encompasses the answer to question 2. Personally I dont object to feminism as a movement for gender equality, but I completely disagree with its stated reason for gender inequality ( false narrative of patriarchy, blaming men) and its proposed solutions ( 'deconstructing' a system which doesnt exist , quotas to force equal outcome not equal opportunity (and then only if women are performing worse, if they are performing better just ignore it doesnt fit the narrative), general focus on one side of the equation without acknowledging the obvious fact there are pros and cons to any inequality and sometimes women benefit sometimes men do. It's the most unprogressive , unacademic and biased equality movement I can think of.)

JoeSmith1907 · 2020-10-20T01:51:15+00:00

Some other issues are false rape accusations, false sexual harassment claims, being shouted down and being shunned as being sexist for opposing feminism, losing job opportunities because of female quotas, kangaroo courts in U.S. colleges (at least before the recent changes), women thinking that "killallmen" is just venting, mandatory arrest laws in domestic violence cases, restraining orders based on false allegations, the portrayal of White men in the media as incompetent losers. Those are just the ones off the top of my head.

BillsBayou · 2020-10-20T02:14:19+00:00

Your third point is the problem for me. Feminism has nothing to do with men's rights. The two are not in competition. Being pro-man is not anti-woman. There are issues which affect only men (military draft, genital mutilation), issues that are the fault of women (false accusations of rape and domestic violence), misunderstood issues (a woman can "rape" a man by encouraging an erection against his will), and issues of masculinity where we're told to "Suck it up" (sexual assault being ignored, domestic violence against men being ignored).

Just because I could withstand an entire day fending off punches and slaps from my wife, it doesn't mean that it's okay for her to do so. And if I end the day with one slap to my wife, I'd be wrong; a monster.

Boys under 18 who are sexually abused by female adults are not recognized as abuse victims. It's often looked at as an admirable act on the boy's part. A) Sex with someone under age is abuse no matter how much the boy or girl wanted it to happen; B) The abused boy has a messed up view of sex and relationships and needs therapy, not pats on the back. Certainly not phrases like "He probably wanted it" from authorities who refuse to prosecute the case.

Dealing with these issues takes nothing away from women's rights.

I understand that some male on female rape cases can be impossible to prove beyond her testimony alone. But the #MeToo movement gave half the planet's population absolute power to condemn the other half. Absolute power always leads to abuse of power. It's a complicated issue and I don't have the answer, but destroying a man's life with an accusation alone cannot be the answer.

There is a statute of limitations on false rape charges. The falsely convicted could still be in jail when his accuser recants her story. This happened locally. The man's life was in ruin. His accuser just walked away with no repercussions.

Human rights is not a zero-sum-game. Granting rights to men doesn't mean taking rights away from women.

The real threat that men's rights represents against feminism is sharing the spotlight. There's only so much attention that people can give to social issues. Some people can give all their attention; some give only a little. Putting another valid human rights issue on the table, one that also deals with a person's sex, WILL take some attention away from feminism, but only because of the social math involved. No rights will be lost, but we're still the enemy.

iainmf · 2020-10-20T01:30:05+00:00

Welcome.

The major men's rights issue is the stigma of advocating men's rights. Nearly all people with influence like politicians are unwilling to say anything about it.

MRAs are not just men, their are a lot of women MRAs. All groups that don't go along with the status quo get lumped together by the establishment. MRAs get accused of being white supremacists by people who have no idea about the men's rights movement around the world. India, for example, has a significant MRM.

I don't accept your premise that "feminism" is nearly meaningless. If you listen to people talk about feminism then they are all over the place, but if you look at what feminists do, it is much clearer. Feminism is the belief that women are not powerful and a movement to increase women's power. This is a problem because women are powerful and underplaying this means feminism acts against equality and creates injustices for men.

According to the Feminist Perspectives Scale, I am a liberal feminist.

Openworldgamer47 · 2020-10-20T06:20:48+00:00

I'm new to activism. But I have been assembling a fairly comprehensive index on prominent men's issues. I have organized it into various categories representing subsets of male issues. The legal issues are most important, as you would anticipate, so I put them first. Everything beyond the halfway point (after it gets messy) is under construction.

Link

What (if any) correlation is there with men's rights and other groups of men like Mgtow or Incels. How do you feel about these groups, do you relate to them or do you think they paint you in a bad light?

There is absolutely overlap. Basically "The Red Pill" movie put this together really well. Men's Rights Activists (us) want to change the system, MGTOW want to leave the perceived unjust system, The Red Pill want to take advantage of the system, and incels are struggling on an existential level within the system.

"Feminism" itself is such a broad word encompassing almost everything to do with women that it is almost meaningless, so are there particular feminist groups/narratives that you find particularly damaging or threatening. Do any of you consider yourselves to be both men's rights activism AND feminist?

Absolutely... It's a diverse group, just like ours! I don't actually identify as an MRA. I want a single non-segregated social movement. But considering how abject our circumstances are, I feel it my responsibility to identify as such publicly.

I think there are awesome feminists out there advocating for true equality, but these are in the minority now. I think the most harmful statements are allusions to masculinity being inherently toxic, blaming all problems on male oppression (patriarchy), appropriating our ideals, and feminists systematically subjugating our demographic through censorship and/or discriminatory laws. I think all of this results in the average person developing an extremely harmful perception of men, with a complete lack of compassion.

I think it's really interesting how the general public (especially women) seem to only have empathy for young boys, as opposed to men. Notice how all semi-popular or growing "men's issues" all disenfranchise or harm boys, not men. Like how boys are "falling behind in education" for example. Or how "boys don't cry". These are all relatively speaking unimportant issues, which don't address the systemic causes. If you want to truly understand the reasons... you need to enter the rabbit hole. Of which there is no end, it only goes deeper. Hence the popular quotation from The Matrix ~

You take the blue pill—the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill—you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember: all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more.

CoolDEpot · 2020-10-20T13:03:48+00:00

Im MGTOW and i detest the word Incel wich i considered to be the equivalent of the word Whore for women, both being sexual shaming. If the word whore is considered taboo and hatecrime so should be the word incel, either both are wrong or non are wrong.

I dont consider myself a feminist because of what you said the word is meaningless.
I believe gender should be completly removed from politics, all laws and rights should be written to apply to all humans period.

Any feminist group/narratives that advocates/gives women power over men rather than advocating/giving equal oportunity.
So any that follows a marxist point of view of the world.
Any sort of ''quotas'' given to women are damaging or threatening.
Also metoo is incredibly damaging and threathing for men (as long as it means that any women should require no evidence to put a man in jail).
Any sort of punishment for ''hate towards women'' its also damaging and threatening, because its not being applied to ''hate towadrs men'' in the same way.
Here in south america the murder of a woman is considered a higher crime with a higer sentences than the murder of a man.
The UK legal system operates as if ''only woman can be raped''.

Theres also plenty of cultural and social problems with feminism but those wouldnt specificly be major threats to mens rights per say, those would be problems outside of the law.

EricAllonde · 2020-10-20T14:24:29+00:00

The problem is that feminism is both malevolent towards men and also politically very powerful. Feminism is the gender equivalent of the KKK, but the KKK is loathed by everyone and has zero power or influence. Feminism, on the other hand, is literally writing the country's laws whenever the Democrats are in power.

For example, in 2011 feminists pulled Joe Biden's strings and he obediently stripped men on campus of their rights to a presumption of innocence and to due process, through the 2011 Dear Colleague letter. That was a trial run for doing the same thing in the criminal courts, which is what would be happening right now if Hillary had won the election.

Feminists also block vital reforms to alimony and child custody; they created the Duluth model and pushed it out to police forces all over; they convinced the CDC to exclude male victims of women from the published rape statistics - all just more examples of feminists consistently opposing gender equality at every turn.

The gynocentric nature of society has handed enormous political power to feminists, and that's why the hate-fuelled ideology of feminism is such a threat - not only to men, but also to the very foundations of western civilisation.

SnakeJaguar · 2020-11-17T19:40:19+00:00

UMichigan study saying men get 63% longer sentences for the same offenses; The gap in university education due to feminist teachers from 1st grade on up. The extreme unfairness black men experience compared to black women in all areas.
None. You know you can’t group all feminist groups. Why do the same here.
Yes if feminism means equal rights. Which many claim, but that doesn’t appear to be true. Certainly “feminist” values (humanist? Equalist?) are needed in parts of the world. The key is “right” not “outcomes”.

tenchineuro · 2020-10-20T04:34:17+00:00

You can get a lot of information from the sidebar.

These are just a few of the issues discussed on this sub, affecting men and boys from around the globe:

Male Genital Mutilation - Circumcision
Education Discrimination
Lack of social support
Legal Discrimination
Selective Service - Enforced Military Duty
Custody Discrimination
False Accusations
Vilification
Male Disposability
Workplace Fatalities

EDIT: Add paternity fraud and that a man can't be raped by a woman (legally).

OkLetterhead10 · 2020-10-20T13:56:45+00:00

1 ) Videos to watch: (examples for videos i find informative)

10 "privileges" of being male
MEETING THE ENEMY A feminist comes to terms with the Men's Rights movement

The Empathy Gap

Identity Harassment

Do Men Have The Power? Male Privilege vs. Male Disposability

Why Do Men's Rights Activists Criticize Feminism?

MRAs Views On Family and Gender Roles

The Money-Making Victims

Men - The forgotten gender

Need for Men's Rights

And the most important one is The Red Pill documentary (the name is "red pill" but is about men's rights not the red pill movement. we both use the term red pill but we have different values)

2) I have no opinion on mgtow / incel

3) Feminism is a biased and sexist, ALL feminists focus exclusively on women's issues and misogyny, while ignoring and silencing anyone who talk about men's issues and misandry. feminism is anti men's rights.

If feminism is about equality why we don't see feminists talk about the fact that boys are 20% less likelly to go to college ?! why feminists don't protest against the lower standard for women in fire fighting, police, millitary ? because they don't care about equality. they want female privilige and supremacy.

shit-zen-giggles · 2020-10-20T15:42:15+00:00

Regarding point 1 of your list:

pretty complete list with up 2 date sources: https://menarehuman.com/citations

newhopefortarget · 2020-10-20T19:34:15+00:00

Women's criminal sentences should be longer. Or men's shorter.
There's overlap. What's your point? Since we're not feminists we don't play the guilt by association game. Every argument should be assessed by its own merit.
Feminism is essentially Marxist. In that way most all feminists believe in an oppressive patriarchal class vs class structure of viewing gendered interaction. Since feminism is essentially antithetical to the male class, you're not going to find any MRA feminists.

Title	Questions - I am new
Author	Oishiio42
Upvotes	6
Comments	47
Date	October 19, 2020 7:35 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/je8vz8/questions_i_am_new/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/questions-i-am-new.1194270 https://theredarchive.com/post/1194270

Comments