rape statistics... help

kloo2yoo · 2010-12-22T04:21:31+00:00

Somehow I made the mistake of saying that for the most part women and men have different ways of looking at things and processing information, which led to a tirade of argumentation and smugness that made me go grr.

if she tells you that that is not the case, then you might be able to argue that it's a premise behind patriarchy theory or the PUA / hollaback arguments.

and the second I said that the definition of rape had become loosened up to a point where it's skewed against men she flipped.

you were right. The 1-in-4 rape statistic can be traced to Mary Koss, and Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers argues that her methodology was badly flawed.

She started saying things like 95% of rapists walk away clean, false accusations are of minimal consequence, and other such exaggerated rape claims.

have your sources together. Read through the FAQ (linked on the sidebar) and take some notes.

fishwish · 2010-12-22T02:33:15+00:00

the second I said that the definition of rape had become loosened up to a point where it's skewed against men she flipped. She started saying things like 95% of rapists walk away clean, false accusations are of minimal consequence, and other such exaggerated rape claims.

So she kicked your ass because you let her change the subject on you whenever it didn't work well for her. It's not that you can't have a decent discussion or debate on these topics, but you didn't come packing with statistics either.

dasSchnabeltier · 2010-12-22T05:09:30+00:00

Mmm, she's fallen victim to the same trap I did when I started university. It's exciting at first, taking women's studies and feeling like you're contributing to something useful, and it's easy to be offended when somebody laughs off the fact that you've been taking women's studies. You brush it off as them being sexist without a second thought as to whether they have good reason to be bitter. Now that I've been out of university for a while I've been doing a lot more studying on my own, and I feel kind of betrayed. I feel like I was indoctrinated and made to accept things as social norms that, looking at them now leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I think my first experience with a men's rights issue came before I was too young even to consider feminism. It was from watching my uncle go through custody battles over his two kids and failing to get equal custody, despite the fact that his ex was a raging bitch. This wasn't something that affected only my uncle; my grandmother was terribly disappointed she couldn't see her grand kids on Christmas, as was the rest of the family. And that's sort of something they don't tell you about in women studies; the fact that the terrible villainous men we are all supposed to be wary about and protecting our children from are our fathers and brothers and sons and uncles, friends and lovers.

I have kind of gone from worrying that I might encounter sexist guys in my daily life to worrying what prejudices I've been handed down against men. And that's kind of a painful thing; looking at my boyfriend and worrying, almost for the first time, if he encounters sexism too. Is he going to be treated unfairly under the law?

Gareth321 · 2010-12-22T11:46:53+00:00

I love a good debate, so I would've been like a fish in water. It sounds like you weren't prepared (or bothered). I would've just said you weren't up for a debate. If she didn't comply, walk away. It's better than getting yourself frustrated in a situation you aren't comfortable with. As for rape statistics, I really like the FBI reports. It doesn't get much more official than the FBI. Of course, I've had feminists tell me the FBI hates women, but that's when you ask them to back up their assertions with facts (and not anonymous surveys). In 2009, the rate of prosecuted rape was 28.7 per 100,000. Much lower than any other type of crime. The next rebuttal here is "but rape is hard to convict". Your argument is then "any crime is hard to convict without evidence, but without the presumption of innocence, we might as well just lock everyone in prison for anything". Their next argument will be "but women don't report rape when it happens". Since the only source of data for such a claim can be anonymous surveys and anecdotal reports (and you should call her on her evidence), she won't be able to prove the assertion.

BolshevikMuppet · 2010-12-23T01:06:53+00:00

I said that the definition of rape had become loosened up to a point where it's skewed against men she flipped

I'd kind of flip at that too, mostly because it's largely inaccurate. If you look up actual rape law (and the history of it), it's not quite the way you describe.

Under old English common law, the standard for rape was the ""Carnal knowledge by a man, of a woman, not one's wife, forcibly and against her will". Think about the standards then: a wife can't be raped by her husband (even against her will), male-on-male or female-on-female non-consensual sex can never be rape, and that it required both a lack of consent, and "force".

Over the course of American jurisprudence into the 20th century, the term "force" was extended from true "hold her down" force, and into "the threat of force", but that brought up an entire area of cases where there was no direct threat of "do it or I'll kill you", but where the woman was intimidated.

Finally, it was brought all the way to the modern jurisprudence: all non-consensual sex is rape. Yes, that becomes more difficult to suss out when there's intoxication, and rape by fraud is kind of a mess, but the underlying principle (the "looseness" of it being "any non-consensual sex is rape, and she must actively consent, not simply "not resist") is sound and fair.

As such, I ask you guys if you might help provide any data or arguments that might be good to have

It depends on how conciliatory you're wanting to be. If you're walking into it from the perspective of "I'm older, I have more world experience, so I know best", you're going to just butt heads. If, however, you can approach it in a more "I get where you're coming from, but here's my concern" tact, it might work better.

So, tactic the first:

Admit that the statistics are inaccurate on both sides. Absolutely reference the Kanin study (which put false rape accusations closer to 40%), but then mention the methodological arguments against him. And then talk about the problems with the self-reporting sexual-assault statistics. Maintain the center ground that both sides are skewing data, rather than taking a hard line of "feminists have it wrong, period, and they're the only ones trying to fudge the numbers"

Wakamezake · 2010-12-22T21:58:39+00:00

Just question her wording, when she says

95% of rapists walk away clean

That statistic is impossible to know but you can easily rephrase it as

95% of rape claims are false or unprovable (since they don't get to court or don't get conviction)

Both of these claims are wrong and persons stating those numbers should actually give you the link of the scientific journal where they were published.

Godspiral · 2010-12-23T02:23:21+00:00

i don't think anyone else brought up the 95% rapists go free myth. That comes from rainn.org. Their statistic is 89%. It is a lie because it is based on 11% of rape complaints result in conviction. And so is assuming that every single complaint is true.

cornholiomangus · 2010-12-22T02:48:08+00:00

Don't talk to feminists. They are a waste of your breath.

orangepop · 2010-12-22T18:54:00+00:00

what i get from this is this

you have opinion A she has opinion B. she was talking about various facts to support her opinion B and you were saying no those facts arent true (for whatever reason) without anything to back your own opinion A. and now like to call her views warped and whatever because she has opinion B and you have opinion A

AnnArchist · 2010-12-22T18:13:17+00:00

If you find out a person is a feminist, they have absolutely nothing to offer you and you should cease communications immediately.

I assume you were at a college party, quit trying to fuck feminists, all it will end with is a false rape charge laid at your feet or a dominating and overbearing girlfriend.

Title	rape statistics... help
Author	poplin
Upvotes	4
Comments	24
Date	December 22, 2010 1:33 AM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/epn39/rape_statistics_help/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/rape-statistics-help.1045036 https://theredarchive.com/post/1045036

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