What does equality mean?

SwanOfAvon22 · 2014-09-04T00:30:40+00:00

In suggested reading, I see it links Pinker's book, which tells me men's rights advocates are against the "sex is a construct" argument. If I may provide a counter to discuss, even if sex is biologically ingrained, ought we still allow all sexes to do what they choose?

No one argues that women shouldn't be able to do what they choose. Least of all Steven Pinker. All he and other evolutionary biologists say is that men and women are innately different, have different average talents, inclinations and desires, and will structure their lives in ways that reflect these differences.

He is against the ex post facto reasoning that takes gender disparities in a given field as evidence of sexism. Ie "Only 10% of engineers/software programmers/congress/CEOs are women, therefore sexism!" The people who do those (feminists/SJW types) never look at the homeless, the prison population or the workplace fatality statistics to make the opposite conclusions ("Sexism!").

"Equality" has become a meaningless word used to illicit uncritical applause from a crowd of people who have no consistent definition of "equality" to begin with. If equality means "equal outcomes," then sure, women are lagging behind men in positions of power, but by that same reasoning they are doing spectacularly well when it comes to prison, homelessness or suicide.

If equality means equal opportunity, equal application of the law, than not only are women doing spectacularly well in Western countries, there are whole areas where they are advantaged by laws or special programs.

ParanoidAgnostic · 2014-09-03T23:36:25+00:00

There are differences in the distributions of various traits between men and women, including aptitudes and preferences. This is observable.

While some of this may be due to social conditioning, it is ridiculous to claim there is no biological basis for it. Just as men and women's bodies evolved for different purposes, so did their brains.

Does this mean that gender roles should be enforced? Of course not. That's not what the MRM is about. The reason we feel it is important to recognize the natural differences between the sexes is not so we can tell men to live 'like men' and women to live 'like women'.

It's a reaction to 2 things:

Society increasingly expects men to behave like women
Feminism's version of equality relies on the assumption that there are no differences in the aptitudes and preferences of average men and women.

It is important to note that, while we acknowledge the differences between the sexes, we also recognize that they aren't universal. Just because the average man has a greater aptitude for spacial reasoning than the average woman does not mean that all men have a greater aptitude for spacial reasoning than all women.

In fact, we are against inflicting generalizations on individuals. We don't like assumptions being made about a person on the basis of sex.

BlueDoorFour · 2014-09-04T00:26:07+00:00

I oppose the belief that gender is a purely social construct. Here's why and what that does and does not mean.

The common feminist argument is that although biological sex is, by definition, biologically determined, gender is a concept that is built entirely out of social pressure. Mostly through early childhood. Many of the more or less radical feminists take this further, rejecting the idea that any sex-linked behaviors are anything but the result of social conditioning.

In comparison, race actually is a purely social construct. Where we draw the lines between black/white/asian/latino is entirely the result of society's attitude. There was a time when the Irish or Italians were also treated as separate "races." That's not to say that race doesn't exist -- it very much does -- but it's not a biologically well-defined classification of our species.

I reject the idea that gender is like race. Sure, gender isn't as black and white as the sexes are, but to assume that there aren't specific behaviors associated with gender is to ignore overwhelming evidence. Our species can be classified by sex, with obvious, measurable physical differences between females and males. Why should it be so impossible that there are inherent behavioral differences as well?

What this does not mean is that we should assume anything about any individual based solely on their gender. What's true on average is not necessarily true of one. To use your example, I may assume women on average to be better child-carers than men (I don't). This doesn't then mean that I need to always give women preference in child-custody, or insist that they be stay-at-home mothers.

What this does mean is that we don't treat every average statistical difference, like the wage or workplace fatality gap, as a result of societal oppression. We don't assume that if a particular field of work or a sport isn't 50/50 by sex then there must be inequality of opportunity. These things can be explained, in many cases, by the inherent, average, behavioral differences between the genders.

To answer your question: Equality means that we treat everyone as an individual, even if we bear in mind the reality of the aggregate.

rbrockway · 2014-09-04T11:16:16+00:00

I think you might want to do some reading on the MRM. The prevailing position is to endorse equality of opportunity.

One of the positions that distinguishes the MRM from traditionalism is the rejection of traditional gender roles.

Nomenimion · 2014-09-04T02:37:54+00:00

It means taking something from a man and giving it to a woman... never the reverse.

Juan_Golt · 2014-09-04T23:03:36+00:00

I focus on the rights of the individual versus the rights of a collective identity. An individual should be able to choose for themselves their path in life regardless of gender.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for more males in aggregate to choose to be truck drivers. In the same way that I think it's reasonable that more women choose to be secretaries. I do not see this as an inherent inequality or flaw. But I would see a problem if a trucking company turned away female applicants because of their gender.

MRSPArchiver · 2014-09-03T23:13:57+00:00

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claytonkb · 2014-09-03T23:26:58+00:00

As a radical philosophical anarchist libertarian in the vein of Benjamin Tucker, Henry Thoreau, Voltairine de Cleyre and Murray Rothbard, the obviously correct answer is: every person must be free to do as they choose so long as they do not aggress against the person or property of others (aggress in this def'n means "initiate violence, threat of violence, or fraud). This freedom applies to every human being by virtue of being human. Therefore, it includes males, females and other gender identities, all races, and any other artificial category which a person might care to impose on humanity.

However, Progressives have a false picture of equality. The Progressives have set equality and diversity at odds with each other. Equality, in the Progressive view, is measured by conformity, in particular, conformity to the population average, particularly in respect to monetary wealth. This definition is collectivist (only applies to populations, not individuals, making the individual an expendable unit), and it is incompatible with natural variation between individuals, since non-conformity is taken as a sign of inequality. Thus, if different races have different interests or propensities, (think of professional sports, for example), this is taken not as a sign of natural variation between the races, but as a sign of oppression and artificially induced inequality. The same logic is applied to the sexes with absurd results. Hardline feminism has a view of the differences between men and women - that the only difference between the sexes is that men have a penis and women have a vagina and breasts - that is as laughably absurd as the flat earth theory of geology.

Title	What does equality mean?
Author	blueberry_crepe
Upvotes	2
Comments	13
Date	September 3, 2014 11:13 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/2feirp/what-does-equality-mean/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/what-does-equality-mean.1620714 https://theredarchive.com/post/1620714

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