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[–]GalileosTele 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I agree with you with one caveat. That’s perfectly reasonable when talking about everyday feminists, who really just call themselves feminists because they consider it to mean women and men should both treated equally (which is what everyone more or less think) but aren’t really aware what is taught and written in feminist theory. Sort of like the average Christians call themselves Christians because they associate it with being a good person, but have never really read the Bible. But when dealing with the campus style gender studies activist feminists, they believe and teach that the world is an oppressive patriarchy created by men for the purpose of benefiting men at the expense of women; and that all men are to blame/guilty. Not to mention their belief that male sexuality is rooted in the desire to rape and dominate women, and that men who haven’t yet, simply haven’t acted on their true inherent male desire to do so, but are always at risk to do so one day. They are motivated by open hatred for men as a whole, and they consider that to be a morally justified position. I don’t know how it would be possible to work with those people. I admit they are in the minority, but they are a loud minority and are concentrated among leaders of feminist activist groups and university positions, as psychos are always the most motivated.
[+]palopi85 -6 points-5 points-4 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I can see that, but tbh I guess I’ve only ever seen those feminists on the internet. I live in a Super liberal area, and have never once encountered one of those in real life. I think the same could be said for this Reddit community too. Some loud MRA are really just here as a reaction against feminism and just bash and hate on women. But that doesn’t mean all of them do. It goes for both sides but I think we should try our best not to hate each other. Like maybe if you made a post like this in a feminist thread you could make some of them realize your pain too and start a discussion. The sad thing is it seems we are all trying to downplay each other’s struggles. I think why women don’t usually pay much attention to MRA’s is because MRA’s usually never concede that sexism against women is systemic and exists. Even many responding to this post are denying it. We all just need to stop downplaying the others struggles. Also I think why feminists may view their issues as more important is because mens issues stem from our social ideas and definitions of masculinity. But women’s issues stem both from viewing femininity as less than AND gender power dynamics. Men hold the power in society and there is no point denying that. However both struggles are valid and need to be worked upon.
[–]ArthurDent4ever 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
“Those feminist “ are the ones running the feminist organizations, changing policies, and indoctrinating students in academia. I’ll admit there are a fare share of women hating MRAs but they don’t have the same reach.
I would never assert that sexism against women doesn’t exist. That would be ridiculous. I would like an example of a systemic issue though (as well as an explanation of how it’s systemic). Most of the sexism against women that still exists I would say are social issues but I would be glad to examine an example. (I will not go so far as to deny its existence )
I take issue with how you accuse MRAs of denying the existence of systemic sexism against women and then say that systemic sexism doesn’t exist against men.
SOME of men’s issues stem from ideas of masculinity ( a construct very much still enforced in the dating market even among feminists) Many Men’s issues are actually systemic and some are caused directly by feminists- another reason many MRAs aren’t a fan.
As for viewing femininity as less I’ve really only heard of this attitude existing from feminists. Some of the largest men’s issues are the gender empathy gap and male disposability which have both existed forever. From a societal standpoint at least, women’s lives and feelings have always been valued over men’s. I will say that Women were historically beloved to be less competent in the workforce than men but I would say that goes back to traditional gender roles. Women were, and still are, perceived to be better parents and home makers than men which leads to some of the issues men face in the family court system.
As for men holding the power in society I would not necessarily say that’s true. While it’s true that most of our government is male they are held to the whims of a voter base that is 54% women. I would also beg the question that if men do in fact hold the power in society why does society seem to almost exclusively focus on women’s issues while men’s issues are all but ignored? Why do women’s groups and programs get a disproportionate amount of funding? Why are men discriminated against in every part of the legal system?
[–]GalileosTele 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It’s true those extreme feminists are not common, but they are concentrated in places that give the a lot of influence, like universities (go to a gender studies department...) or journalists or running large feminist orgs like NOW. I don’t agree that femininity is or has been viewed as less than. I think that is a narrative that has been successfully pushed by feminist groups, the media, and professors, by cherry picking isolated examples and ignoring far more numerous cases that show the contrary. Femininity and women have been celebrated in just about every culture you can find e.g. art is filled with celebration of femininity. The overwhelming attitude IMO has been more along the lines of femininity is better in some circumstances and worse in others. Same for masculinity. If anything, feminist scholars have activity excluded women and celebrations of women in history in order to put forth their claim of the patriarchy. And as they are concentrated in education (I was in physics and even there it was shoved down our throats) most women in America get this impression to some degree, even if just a little bit. As far as the “everyday sexism” that feminists often talk about (language, assumptions, things said online by some person you’ll never meet, things like that), IMO it’s whining about silly unimportant things. A lot of MRAs are now doing the same thing by the way. And I think it’s a mistake. Now we have two groups making a big deal and bickering over trivial nonsense. There are of course egregious examples, but those are exceptional, even though everyone will encounter them on occasion as there are a lot of human encounters.
[–]Ody_ssey 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Feminists fight against a supposed patriarchy.
They are fighting for the wrong thing. You can't ask men to stop studying 12 hours a day and not to prepare for high paying jobs. Someone who is working hard will eventually get the position. It's all about competition.
[+]palopi85 -7 points-6 points-5 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
It’s not about telling men to not work hard. It’s about how women who are just or even more qualified are not allowed to climb up the social ladder. There are many studies on disparities in high paying fields of men and women, and it’s just the truth that if you have the same exact resume but a women’s name you are viewed as less than.
[–]Ody_ssey 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Equal qualification doesn't equal merit. Qualification only deems your eligibility. Most women opt out of career when they are married. They have to take maternity leave atleast once or twice in their life, take time off to raise children and they have to avoid overtime to spend time with their family. Private companies will never compensate for your life choices, they are there to make money, not for your family welfare.
Your merit score starts falling once your married life pushes you away from your corporate life. This merit score accounts for every factor of your professional life and it stays with you until death and begins as soon as you are out of college. This is why there is a gender disparity. The solution is not to marry but then wtf are you working overtime in a company for.
That's why companies spend millions in employee background verification to ensure the legitimacy of your past career path. If it was only about qualification, a simple email to your university will verify your paper degree.
No two candidates can have exactly equal resume either, only their qualification can be same. Someone is coming from an MNC, someone is coming from a startup, someone has free lancing projects. This merit score in the end decides how potential candidate you are.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It’s about how women who are just or even more qualified are not allowed to climb up the social ladder.
Women outearn men until they start having kids. Women can climb up any ladder they want to, but they have to really sacrifice (not the cheap I'll stay home with the kids for 18 years and do nothing while their in school sacrifice... real sacrifice). They'll have to give up time with kids. They'll have to give up time at home. They'll have to work overtime. They'll have to give up free time.
In essence, they'll have to do what men do to climb that ladder.
[–]user_miki 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
you quote a lot gender studies.Well gender studies is not real science.
Men and women are social constructs because your mamma is a feminist and taught you that,or you read some feminist bullshit propaganda.We strongly disagree and consider it false.
Any feminist paper that you read is biased and peer reviewed by other feminists quoted in feminist circles, they quoted each other in circle.That was proven last year by 3 researchers that exposed the feminist academia.
To answer you question we cannot work tog here because we don;t have a common reference we don't operate with the same definitions.Feminists invented they own vocabulary that is not matching ours, so a debate is impossible. It is like speaking different languages without translation.
In my opinion any source before 2010 should be regarded suspicious as a feminist ideologically driven source and eventually discarded as biased.
[–]imNagoL 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
The very reason that men must hide their emotions and “man up” is that women, particularly feminists, encourage these behaviours. This is the group that has actively fought to stop men from coming together to discuss their issues.
The term “feminist” inherently implies a focus on women’s rights. I’ve never seen a so called “feminist” discuss male issues voluntarily and in a positive light, only offering their opinions in an attempt to argue that they have it much worse than us. It’s never been about equality.
[–]palopi85 -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I think you’ve been caught up with the wrong feminists. Toxic masculinity in itself has been a huge discussion for feminists. The name might seem as if it’s an attack in men, but it really it is basically the points I described above. Just as there are extreme feminists, there are extreme men’s rights activists who also are mostly reactionary to feminism and hate on it. So obviously many feminists won’t be too keen on this group because of those loud members. But in realty moderate feminists do stress how femininity should also be embraced by everyone.
[–]Ody_ssey 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Feminists speak about masculinity as if they are coming from biology subject. If you check their qualifications, they are far from science fields.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Toxic masculinity in itself has been a huge discussion for feminists.
Blaming men for their problems has been a huge discussion for feminists.
Preventing men from coming together to solve those problems has also been a huge goal for feminists...
[–]RockmanXX 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The name might seem as if it’s an attack in men
Then maybe stop using a word that sounds like its an attack on men? hmm...
[–]shit-zen-giggles 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
So, you will teach women to only regard men who are "in touch with their feminine side" and ignore "aloof alpha guys"?
Good luck with that.
[–]RockmanXX 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
I’m gonna get banned from here
You should be, your refusal to use paragraphs offends my eyes!
Feminists fight against a supposed patriarchy
Patriarchy as defined by Feminists is a bullshit theory. NO, men did not decide to create a system to oppress women, that's bullshit.
I’ve seen that men’s issues are both very real
WHAT!? You didn't think that Men had serious issues until Now? JESUS....
Sure they may be some judgement sometimes for being too masculine, but for the most part society allows it
Nonsense, ALL women are feminine because femininity is how females express themselves. If a man wears nail-polish&lip-gloss, he's STILL masculine and if a girl has short hair and wears cargo pants, she's STILL feminine. She's not going to stop psychologically acting like a girl and the boy isn't going to stop acting like a boy either, so what's changed exactly? NOTHING! Tomboys are still very feminine.
Its funny how Feminists claim to fight strict gender roles and still end up separating femininity&masculinity in such a superficial way.
As a man, you’re not allowed to express your emotions
WHAT!? Expressing emotions isn't a Feminine thing!! Men express emotions ALL the damn time, Society just IGNORES them. Look at all most of the popular movies, ALL written by men and BRIMMING WITH EMOTIONS!
because with our current gender roles it is almost impossible to view men as vulnerable
Oh STOP LYING, its because of FEMINISM that its almost impossible make men seem vulnerable.
this damages themselves and creates a narrative that men can’t experience pain and are dangerous
LIES! Feminists are the one telling the world that men are potential rapists&school shooters and we need to teach them not to rape.. You Feminists are doing this to us, Feminists are the self-declared enemies of the Y-Chromosome, the creator of MRA was literally a feminist who got kicked out by Feminists because he wanted to talk about men's issues.
viewing women as weak
Double-think, women are weak victims of strong evil patriarchal men when you want it and women are strong badasses when you want it. Pick one, you can't have both.
You are what we would call a “house hold feminist.” The problem is that the actual activists, organizations, lawyers, etc. don’t see things this way. For example the National Organization for Women (NOW) has been fighting against equal custody laws since the 1980’s.
but going through this subreddit, I’ve seen that men’s issues are both very real and actually fueled by what what many feminists are fighting against.
You start fighting against the feminists of NOW who are fighting against Equal parenting rights.
You start fighting against the academic feminists who fight to ensure female rapists aren't counted as real rapists.
You start fighting the feminists who push the Duluth Model and men are always the aggressor models of Domestic Violence.
You start fighting your own side which is actively discriminating against men... and then we'll talk about working together.
[–]Lethn 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
but they are not allowed to accept any forms of femininity.
Do you know who are the first to mock and attack men for displaying any kind of emotions? Feminists, the rest of your post is a load of drivel and just you repeating yourself.
Studies show that a part of the reason men don’t live as long as women is because of the expectation to not express how you feel.
That's a load of shit and you should link studies when you claim something about them.
[–]palopi85 -2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
I kindly disagree. From the men I’ve talked to, a lot of times it’s their own male friends that they have trouble talking about their real life issues. They have admitted to me that they usually discuss more serious topics with female friends. And it has been growing trend among women to not go for the “macho” hyper masculine type of man. You’ll see many memes nowadays that say if a man can cry comfortably women will fall in love with them. Although, I think rejection of femininity is a problem amongst BOTH men and women, it is not one sided.
[–]Lethn 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
And what is the sample size that you've used to determine this? Because I've got most of reddit and really social media to look at when it comes to this particular problem that feminists and their supporters try to present as a major male issue.
[–]palopi85 -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
At the end of the day there’s no way to really prove who’s right and wrong. I’ve noticed this pattern across the internet too, not just my close friends. The point is that society viewing femininity as less than is the real cause of these issues- no matter who’s the perpetrator, be it men or hyper feminists. When most feminists talk about “toxic masculinity” they aren’t saying all masculinity is toxic, but that for men it almost requires u to only be one thing and reject femininity, which creates the damages described above. I think there is so much animosity between us, and mostly because each sex has experienced a lot of pain from the other. But in truth, we are all slaves in the system of both gender power dynamics and restrictive gender roles.
[–]Ody_ssey 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
If I say black colour is toxic but not all black color is toxic. Does that make sense of my statement?
[–]palopi85 -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
Black color is literally melanin it’s biology. So saying it’s toxic is racist. Masculinity and femininity are social constructs. They are not biological truths that are inherent to men and women. By saying masculinity is toxic, I’m not saying men are toxic, I’m saying that our idea of what it means to be a man excludes femininity and therefore is toxic. Masculinity also encompasses multiple ideas. So I can agree with some facets of it and criticize others. courage, independence and strength are good masculine qualities. But being stoic, unemotional, and angry are the so called “toxic” traits of masculinity that actually serve to hurt men.
[–]Ody_ssey 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Masculine and feminine is as much biological as men and women are. Masculinity is a set of natural physical and mental characteristics men inherits from their parent. Like, more muscles, beard growth, deep voice, body strength, endurance, likeness towards dangerous sports like rugby, interest towards cars, bikes, playing video games etc.
The only people who preach about that they are social construct are the ones whose background is not science but gender studies. Everything is written in biology atleast in my country.
[–]palopi85 -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
I am very much a science person lol I’m going to MIT to study computer science too and I’ve participated in prostate cancer research. I admit the social ideas of masculinity and femininity are derived from biology, but they insinuate and encourage non biological truths. Like sure men are usually stronger and kinda more violent because of testosterone , but does that mean men can’t be vulnerable, or non-violent, or caring? Of course not. And yea sure women have a natural instinct to nurture because of evolution, but does that mean they can’t be strong or angry? Of course not. The problem I have is that biological differences are used to dictate what traits men and women can and cannot have. With women it’s more flexible, but with men it’s not.
[–]Ody_ssey 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
The problem I have is that biological differences are used to dictate what traits men and women can and cannot have.
Not at all. Masculine and feminine traits between men and women can overlap. They are not exclusive for each. E.g. Some women opt marshal arts, some love playing video games, some love building muscles to extreme length.
Everything is written in biology if you check it. The people that are adding their own "knowledge" are not from science background so don't believe them if you are a believer of science.
[–][deleted] 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–]palopi85 -2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Men’s cancer research is funded less because usually the victims of prostate cancer are usually older and prostate cancer is not as lethal. However breast cancer affects little kids and is more lethal, so it garners more sympathy. This also relates to my point how men receive less empathy that’s why they get less funding. My mom is a cancer researcher so she let me work in her lab and I did a project on how a compound called bergamottin reduces androgen receptor activation and reduces prostate cancer growth. Believe what you will.
[–]Lethn 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Masculinity and femininity are social constructs. They are not biological truths that are inherent to men and women.
And you've just lost all credibility, I knew you were full of shit the second I saw you use the term gender roles.
[–]LegalIdea 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I'd be interested in working together
Problem being, most feminist women I've tried to work with are happy to accept my help for what they want, but are not interested in helping with anything else, sometimes actively undermining my efforts
[–]palopi85 -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Sorry to hear that. I think this is a burden on both communities. We feel fighting for the opposite sex will make our own problems not be addressed. It something that needs to be worked on on both groups
[–]LegalIdea 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I don't think I've ever worked with you personally before, so in the interest of making progress I have an idea
Message me with an legal issue from the female side you want to see addressed and I'll write up a proposal on how to fix it. (Can include funding, changes in policies, whatever. I can't help you with stuff that's already illegal)
I'll reply with an important issue and we'll see what progress we can make together
[–]xNOM 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You're not "oppressed." There is no magical Patriarchy. Gender roles are not a social construct. Stop trying to make men grow vaginas.
[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
why aren't men 'allowed' to express feminine characterisitcs? if thats what men want to do you can?
I used to work with a man who wasn't trans but liked wearing dresses.
unless you live in a country where you would get arrested? If men want to wear pink you are allowed to.
ONE of the many reasons why men don't live as long is becuase of of the Y on the XY chromosone and they may work in construction.
in terms of women being weaker and pregnancy, women are vulnerable if thats what you mean by weak?
Maybe you could start small like having a night bus help pick up men after nights out so they don't have to walk home on their own. or you could be an agony uncle/aunt or something??
[–]palopi85 -2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It’s just been observed to me that when men express emotion or express feminine characteristics they are bashed and put down and viewed as less than a man by society. It’s not that men CANT be feminine, but that how we raise men , our ideas of what masculinity is, and viewing femininity as less than, all prevent that. It’s much more than wearing pink or makeup, usually if you do those things you’re viewed as gay which also has negative connotations. Also I’m not saying women are weak, I’m saying society viewing femininity as weak hurts men.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
well i guess its the parents responsibility to teach them that. it can't all be societies. if they get bashed then they know not to hang out with those people anymore.
we learn most things from our parents. so properly educating people and giving parenting classes is key. the mother and father have full control over how the child is raised so if the boy feels like he can't cry its the parents fault.
if i break someone's toy then i'm responsible not society.
why does it matter it someone calls you gay/lesbien when you are not?
anyway i've recieved so much abuse from this subreddit that i give up helping people. i really thought they would love women supporting them but obviously not. a handful of men on here are very scary or they have experienced something traumatic by a woman and taking it out on me. x
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[–]GalileosTele 8 points9 points10 points (3 children) | Copy Link
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