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Why masculists almost don't exist at all?

KiNgOfSpEEdOJaCK · 2019-08-20T19:59:34+00:00

I have never found a masculist in wild or any masculism society that is built in that way of feminism. Why?...

KiNgOfSpEEdOJaCK

August 20, 2019

8 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	Why masculists almost don't exist at all?
Author	KiNgOfSpEEdOJaCK
Upvotes	8
Comments	43
Date	August 20, 2019 7:59 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ct54ap/why_masculists_almost_dont_exist_at_all/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/why-masculists-almost-dont-exist-at-all.870797 https://theredarchive.com/post/870797

Comments

[–]iainmf 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Bildungsfetisch -12 points-11 points-10 points 6 years ago (44 children) | Copy Link

[–]tenchineuro 10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]KiNgOfSpEEdOJaCK[S] 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (36 children) | Copy Link

[–]tenchineuro 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+]Bildungsfetisch -9 points-8 points-7 points 6 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

I see your point and I'll gladly explain in what way this relates to feminism and more importantly: In what way it doesn't.

The Duluth Model was created for women only for two reasons: - Statistically speaking are women victims of abuse more often than men - Women are generally viewed or portrayed as weak and worthy of protection whereas men are viewed as steong and aggressive (I am not saying that this is the right approach. The Duluth Model should go for women as well as for men of course!)

And this is were the problme lies: We are raised to believe that women are weak and and nice and men are strong and often aggressive. When men are abused by their female partners they are often answered with disbelief, because the fact that men can be victims of domestic violence as well and that women can be abusers too goes against that beliefs that we hold about the genders since childhood. However, that is not a feminist or equalist view. That's sexism.

I am not American so I don't know about the specifics of the Duluth Protocoll. But a protocoll that is supposed to protect victims of DV and leads to a victim being arrested is a scandal and serious call for change. Any male victim of DV that is met with disbelief is a scandal and one too many.

I think after women got more protection from DV by the law, now it's the men's turn. Moderate feminists agree and sympasize with male victims of abuse. I think we're making progress in this issue already, since this topic is talked about in public now. I really wish it was less of a taboo too on order to make change more quickly. I would wish for the public to recognize men as well as women as vulnerable but also as potential abusers. That is a true feminist/equalist perspective on the issue. Everyone deserves protection by the law and fair trails. And that's how feminism/equalism also works for men.

Ideally.

[–]tenchineuro 10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

The Duluth Model was created for women only for two reasons: - Statistically speaking are women victims of abuse more often than men - Women are generally viewed or portrayed as weak and worthy of protection whereas men are viewed as steong and aggressive (I am not saying that this is the right approach. The Duluth Model should go for women as well as for men of course!)

Wrong, the Duluth Model was created because the previous Primary Aggressor model lead to women being arrested for DV, and that went against the narrative. The Duluth model literally says that if the man is clearly the only one injured, then this is because the women is the DV victim lashing out at her abuser. That's literally what it says. If I need to explain this to you, then you won't understand the explanation, it's pure unadulterated male-victim blaming misandry. If you defend it, I'd assume that you could also have written it.

I am not American so I don't know about the specifics of the Duluth Protocoll. But a protocoll that is supposed to protect victims of DV and leads to a victim being arrested is a scandal and serious call for change. Any male victim of DV that is met with disbelief is a scandal and one too many.

That's literally feminism in action, that's what feminism does.

I think after women got more protection from DV by the law, now it's the men's turn.

Over feminism's dead body.

Moderate feminists agree and sympasize with male victims of abuse.

No feminism anywhere even allows for male victims (of anything) and feminism does not sympathize with men, ever. Doing so will get you thrown out of the movement, just ask Cassie Jaye.

I really wish it was less of a taboo too on order to make change more quickly.

Keep wishing on that star and ignore and support the source of the problem, that's the way forward, right?

Everyone deserves protection by the law and fair trails. And that's how feminism/equalism also works for men.

Feminism does not work for men, feminism labels men patriarchal oppressors and works against men every way possible. But don't let reality color your rhetoric.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-cant-we-hate-men/2018/06/08/f1a3a8e0-6451-11e8-a69c-b944de66d9e7_story.html?noredirect=on

[–]AskingToFeminists 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I would suggest you take a look at this topic and try to find a copy of "coordinating community responses to domestic violence : lessons from Duluth and beyond", especially chapter 2, p28-29, by Ellen L. Pence. It says wonderful things like

"The Power and Control Wheel, which was developed by battered women attending women's groups, was originally a description of typical behaviors accompanying the violence. In effect it said, "When he is violent, he gets power and he gets control." Somewhere early in our organizing efforts, however, we changed the message to "he is violent in order to get control or power." The difference is not semantic, it is ideological. Somewhere we shifted from understanding the violence as rooted in a sense of entitlements to rooted in a desire for power. By determining that the need or desire for power was the motivating force behind battering, we created a conceptual framework that, in fact, did not fit the lived experience of many of the men and women we were working with. Like those we were criticizing, we reduced our analysis to a psychological universal truism. The DAIP staff—like the therapist insisting it was an anger control problem, or the judge wanting to see it as an alcohol problem, or the defense attorney arguing that it was a defective wife problem—remained undaunted by the difference in our theory and the actual experiences of those we were working with. We all engaged in ideological practices and claimed them to be neutral observations.Eventually, we began to give into the process that is the heart of the Duluth model: interagency communication based on discussions of real cases. It was the cases themselves that created the chink in each of our theoretical suits of armor. Speaking for myself, I found that many of the men I interviewed did not seem to articulate a desire for power over their partner. Although I relentlessly took every opportunity to point out to men in the groups that they were so motivated and merely in denial, the fact that few men ever articulated such a desire went unnoticed by me and many of my coworkers. Eventually, we realized that we were finding what we had already predetermined to find. The DAIP staff were interpreting what men seemed to expect or feel entitled to as a desire. When we had to start explaining women's violence toward their partners, lesbian violence, and the violence of men who did not like what they were doing, we were brought back to our original undeveloped thinking that the violence is rooted in how social relationships (e.g., marriage) and the rights people feel entitled to within them are socially, not privately, constructed" (and there's more like that)

And you say you are not from the USA, but you would be well advised to learn about the Duluth model, because it is used throughout the English speaking world, and has a tremendous influence on the rest.

[–]OrionTheWolf -2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]tenchineuro 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]OrionTheWolf -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]tenchineuro 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]OrionTheWolf -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]tenchineuro 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ProveSolution -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]tenchineuro 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]ProveSolution -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]tenchineuro 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]ProveSolution1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

yes... well.. you can make it both ways. i explained that i like equal rights; and this is 2nd wave feminism; although i usually don't go into details.2nd wave is to most like "huh?!" then... what i do next is to point out that this is achieved and the other things are all lies. the i go over to it does not really matter if it is lies; and what has happened. what happens is the now and that we have a jolly good time together. make it comfy in eternity. then i go over to flirt with them. my fast approach to quick fix them. not a full healing but it does the trick. truth is a vector within reality.

no. not even slightly skilled like the cia.

feminism is all based on blaming someone else. as long as you do this, you can not be aware of why you did what action. because you do not go deep enough.

[–]tenchineuro2 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

what i do next is to point out that this is achieved and the other things are all lies. the i go over to it does not really matter if it is lies; and what has happened. what happens is the now and that we have a jolly good time together. make it comfy in eternity. then i go over to flirt with them. my fast approach to quick fix them. not a full healing but it does the trick. truth is a vector within reality.

<looking around>, nothing seems to be happening. Nothing is changed.

feminism is all based on blaming someone else. as long as you do this, you can not be aware of why you did what action. because you do not go deep enough.

There is a difference between holding feminism responsible for it's actually said and done and blaming men as a class for things they did not do. Is this more concern trolling?

[–]ProveSolution1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]tenchineuro1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ProveSolution1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]tenchineuro1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]KiNgOfSpEEdOJaCK[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Bildungsfetisch -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

You're talking about extreme feminists there, that tend to spread hate towards men, which I agree is absolutely wrong and toxic.

Most moderate femists (that are just sadly less vocal than extreme ones) also see the struggle of modern men. I think as a society we're making slow but steady progress ridding 'toxic masculinity', which includes ideas like that men should keep their emotions to themselfes. Society also tends to have high expectations on men regarding their career, leading to many men working their asses off instead of being able to bond with their families. I see this culture as very dangerous and problematic for men (and families) and in my opinion this culture of said toxic masculinty is contributing to the high rate of suicide among men. Now, strengthening the position of working mothers for example is a feminist achievement that also indirectly helps men, because it takes some of the pressure to be the provider for the family off them and allowes them to spend more time with their children. There are other things as well, where men are clearly in a position of disadvantage, I barely scratched a surface here (but I think you know about them better than me anyway).

My point is, that both women and men struggle in a society that expects certain behaviours from them based on their gender, and sanctions those who don't fit these expectations. I plead that we work together for each others rights. Sure, in some cases there are conflicts of interest between the genders by nature (for example who gets a say whether a baby will be delivered or aborted?) but in the end women and men love each other and should fight for a society that is loving and welcoming for everyone, including working mothers and stay-at-home fathers and couples that take on both roles and women in the military and men in child care. You get the idea.

Let's not spread hate towords each other but contribute to a consensus that change for everyone is needed.

[–]tenchineuro 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Most moderate femists (that are just sadly less vocal than extreme ones) also see the struggle of modern men.

All they see is patriarchal privilege oppressing women.

I think as a society we're making slow but steady progress ridding 'toxic masculinity', which includes ideas like that men should keep their emotions to themselfes.

Really? What makes you think either that.

This is toxic masculinity?
Anything has changed in this regard?

Society also tends to have high expectations on men regarding their career,

It's not an expectation, it's a requirement. Men failing to meet said requirement get homelessness or jail.

Basically, you seem to be a feminist blaming men for all their problems. We see that a lot.

I plead that we work together for each others rights.

When you say we, you mean MRAs and whom else?

[–]Bildungsfetisch 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

It's sadly true that nothing much has changed so far, but the public recognizing toxic masculinity as a serious issue that harms many people is at least a first step. Awareness changes behaviours. But like I said, the progress we're making is slow.

I don't blame anyone for their problems. You can't blame men, that are in a poor state of mental health (that eventually leads to suicide) for their situation, if they've never been taught to cope in a healthy way ("boys don't cry" and other tales we tell kids and men about masculinity) and if they have to overwork themselfes just to fullfill their 'duty' as men and provider.

When I say 'we' I am talking about society as a whole, men and women. If everyone would recognize the struggles of women as well as the struggles of men, we could change our culture for the better.

[–]tenchineuro 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

It's sadly true that nothing much has changed so far, but the public recognizing toxic masculinity as a serious issue that harms many people is at least a first step.

They see 'men' as the problem.

You can't blame men, that are in a poor state of mental health (that eventually leads to suicide) for their situation,

Feminism does blame men, not that it makes fine distinctions like that.

I plead that we work together for each others rights.

When you say we, you mean MRAs and whom else?

When I say 'we' I am talking about society as a whole, men and women.

Women have been taught to view men they don't know as a threat. Society has no sympathy for male victims of any kind. And women are not working with anybody for men's rights.

Only a feminist would be optimistic at this point for creating a situation where maleness itself is considered toxic (you seem onboard with that) and men can lose their homes and jobs for an anonymous accusation. Feminism has always been opposed to due process, that and the very concept that a man can be innocent, feminist jurisprudence has made this a reality.

[–]Keenin455 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

if they've never been taught to cope in a healthy way ("boys don't cry" and other tales we tell kids and men about masculinity)

This is why you fail as a feminist examining Men's Rights.

You aren't willing to go beyond the standard talking point of "Shame", "Machismo", "Boys don't cry" in order to see the big picture of what's been happening with men as of late.

Men ARE expressing themselves. Except they're ignored, shamed for being white, constantly pestered to check their privilege, faulted for the oppression of every single minority group under the sun and getting female empowerment in the form of "Girls rule and boys drool" shoved in their face by the media, politicians and school system.

Yet here you are, blissfully stuck in that age old, antiquated mindset that it's Toxic Masculinity to blame or other men telling them they're a sissy for speaking out.

God, you don't know how sick and tired I get of feminists like you. You're actually worse than those who openly hate men. At least they're open and honest about their bigotry. You are just utterly dead set in your "Patriarchy hurts men" narrative, sitting pretty in your ivory tower and congratulating yourself daily on a job well done.

Girls are bullying boys and getting away with it. Your answer: Toxic Masculinity

Men losing their jobs and careers from false accusations of rape. Your answer: Toxic Masculinity

Women hit and rape men. Your answer: Toxic Masculinity

No services for male victims. Your Answer: Toxic Masculinity

Media depictions of men as bumbling buffoons and punching bags for female protagonists. Your answer: Toxic Masculinity.

Here's my answer and I want you to embed this deeply in your mind so that it stays permenantly.

Girls and Women are not getting the necessary discipline and lessons that boys are inundated with when it comes to respect and policing their behaviour.

Why don't you and your "Good Feminist" friends start correcting that instead of pretending your one-size-fits all solutions are pertinent.

[–]Bildungsfetisch 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Like I said: I'm barely scratching the surface here and the concept of toxic masculinity served merely as an example. I am aware that the problem is much, much more complex then that (like all problems society is dealing with are). If my presentation of some male struggles were too one-dimensional I am sorry.

I gave some thoughts to the ideas you just presented and I think I agree with you on that matter. It's unfair that girls and women get a free pass on certain behaviour they're hurting people with and that needs to be stopped. This thread was actually eyeopening to me in that regard and I exit this conversation knowing it better than that which is good.

However, you could have gotten your point across without attacking me personally (argumentum ad hominem).

My question now is: Apparently I'm doing it all wrong and contributing to the problem. What can I as an individual do to actually support MRA and their goals? My intention is good. I'd like everyone to be able to live the best life they can, free from any form of abuse, be it of physical or phychological nature. So I'd actually really appreciate if anyone has tips or something they want to tell me regarding that mater. I am listening to you, this is why I came here.

[–]Keenin455 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Like I said: I'm barely scratching the surface here and the concept of toxic masculinity served merely as an example. I am aware that the problem is much, much more complex then that (like all problems society is dealing with are). If my presentation of some male struggles were too one-dimensional I am sorry.

Not only were they one-dimensional, they were insulting because many men here, including myself, have experienced consequences of opening up about our issues that are not related at all to being threatened with the derogatory slur of "Sissy".

I gave some thoughts to the ideas you just presented and I think I agree with you on that matter. It's unfair that girls and women get a free pass on certain behaviour they're hurting people with and that needs to be stopped. This thread was actually eyeopening to me in that regard and I exit this conversation knowing it better than that which is good.

Then I hope you follow my advice and direct your advocacy towards this key area without blaming men, toxic masculinity or The Patriarchy. Girls that willfully behave like brats, hurt boys, women who get it in their head its empowering to step on a man, they aren't being coaxed into doing this by some male outside force or fatherly societal system.

My question now is: Apparently I'm doing it all wrong and contributing to the problem. What can I as an individual do to actually support MRA and their goals?

See my previous response above. Get everyone (parents and teachers) on board with teaching girls the same thing boys are taught and don't pull any punches. Total commitment to consistent discipline.

[–]Bildungsfetisch 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Only2DaysLeft 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]RockmanXX 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

also see the struggle of modern men.

CAN YOU BE ANYMORE OF A SHAMELESS LIAR!? Not a single feminist website on this planet, not a single feminist seminar exists which highlights the struggles of men.

which includes ideas like that men should keep their emotions to themselfes

Yes they should, Society is evil place. If you tell others that you're hurt, society will call you a loser. Stop acting like Women&Men think&view the world in the same way, we have different ways of emoting.

~~toxic masculinty~~ FEMINISM is contributing to the high rate of suicide among men

FTFY

strengthening the position of working mothers for example is a feminist achievement that also indirectly helps men

GOOD HEAVENS, HOW CAN WE THANK GREAT FEMINISTS FOR THE BREAD CRUMBS!?

allowes them to spend more time with their children

Oh wait, Feminists lobbies men out of child custody. Nevermind, bread Crumbs were just an ILLUSION.

I plead that we work together for each others rights

Yes, the first step is DESTROYING THE MALE HATRED MOVEMENT FEMINISM!

[–]AskingToFeminists 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Most moderate femists (that are just sadly less vocal than extreme ones) also see the struggle of modern men.

Even if we admit that we're true... The thing is, what matter is who is in charge, what they accomplish, what is being done, what campaigns are being conducted and have wide repercussions.

And to those questions, the answers are : "extremist" feminists are in charge, they accomplish misandrist things, push misandrist campaigns and the repercussions are that all that is effectively done by feminism hurts men, and very often, it also hurts women.

So, we keep hearing of this silent majority of feminists that are truly for equality. Not only are they silent, they are inactive. In fact, their silence is so intense, and they are so motionless that they could as well not exist.

In the mean time, we have the Duluth model, that explicitly discriminate against male victims openly. We have the Mary Koss definition of rape used for all the statistics (you know, we shouldn't consider men who are forced into sexual intercourse as victims of rape just because they are "ambivalent about their desires"). We have title 9 used to create kangaroo courts and ignore men's due process rights, we have the "teach men not to rape" campaigns, we have messages about "toxic masculinity", we have "HeForShe", we have MGM practiced commonly, we have VAWA, we have the "patriarchy conspiracy theory" being accepted as gospel, we have female only scholarships when women have made more than 50% of college graduates for decades, and no program for men only in fields where women dominate, we have manspreading as a term that is widespread, we have professors writing in huge newspapers "why can't we hate men?", we have academic departments that are so filled with manhatred that publishing an article suggesting that to improve education, white male students should be chained on the floor goes unnoticed, to the exception that the guy who exposed that gets a blame for the ethics of having exposed that level of hate, because you see, when he tried to see if such a paper could get published, that can be considered experimenting on humans, and that's unethical...

So, please, show me what is done by all those "feminists for equality". I'll be waiting, though not holding my breath. At best you will be able to point to manhaters who just say things like "patriarchy hurts men too" or "we want to get rid of the toxic masculinity that hurts men" in a feat of complete lack of self awareness.

[–]ProveSolution 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Uzrathixius 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]RockmanXX 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]iainmf 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]AskingToFeminists 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]iainmf 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MRA-automatron-2kb 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link