Moral Absolutism Part 2

[deleted] · 2013-09-27T15:35:05+00:00

I'm gonna side-step your main question and try to deliver more concisely what my main problem with the way TRP looks at morality is:

TRP notices that Western society has shifted and is continuing to shift, and in their opinion not for the better.

No problems, so far. I actually agree with a lot of that.

What I take issue with is that rather than critically look at the problems and attempt to provide solutions, or a workable alternative, TRP seems to endorse letting it rot so that you can be King Turd of Shit Mountain.

That's the attitude that I don't think is productive.

soulcakeduck · 2013-09-27T18:55:28+00:00

Don't need to elevate one moral code over another when there is so much we already agree on. We can start there.

Both agree that rape is morally wrong. What is left is a factual question, not a moral one (does one side promote rape?). Same for legal oppression, most interpersonal violence, hatred, and so on.

Can you give an example where Blue says "TRP is X. X is morally wrong." And Red says, "TRP is X. But X is morally good/neutral."?

nwob · 2013-09-27T20:29:06+00:00

It has to be said that the members of the Red Pill and the Blue Pill frequently make normative judgements about society and each other. We would be silly, I think, to claim that neither side does so.

There is an extent to which the Red Pill claims to be morally grey, and acting only on facts about the world, but also an extent to which it makes quite clear judgements about the state of society in general - that it has, in some sense, morally declined.

There is a two-prong Blue Pill response. Firstly, in response to the majority of the Red Pill's factual claims, that they are empirically false, and in response to the majority of the Red Pill's normative claims, that they are hypocritical, contradictory or shockingly distant from a moral code we would consider reasonable. Obviously, an internally consistent ethical system does not provide any purchase for attack, because that's how the is-ought distinction goes, but we can still deconstruct the system of the Red Pill and lay it open for all to see.

I'm afraid I don't feel I can simply let you get away with premise 2 either. TBP makes no such promise and has no such consistent moral system. It's stance presumes an alternate moral system, but does not require or specify it. The only thing that unites the members of TBP is their dislike of TRP.

fhqwhgads_ · 2013-09-28T08:12:42+00:00

Let's agree that the most moral action is the one that has the most benefit to the happiness/well-being of humans.

Though we may never be able to decide the most moral action for a certain situation, we can usually say which actions are less moral and which are more moral by comparing their results to human happiness.

For example, if you had the option to lie v.s. not lie in a neutral situation, generally the most moral action would be to not lie, because it has less potential to harm others and is thus more moral. However, in some specific situations, it could be argued that lying would be more moral.

So it is possible to say that one morality system is objectively better than another if we have enough data (#1).

Addressing #2, TBP is not a morality system. I'm not even convinced that TRP is a morality system. It seems that many of your claims are not about morality (what we should do) but about truth (what is). If you are willing to describe the TRP morality system, then I would be willing to discuss it.

Here is a small discussion. Many TRP members have claimed that sexual strategy is amoral. This is obviously false, because while attempting to have sex we can harm others. For example, one TRP member claimed that if kidnapping and repeatedly raping a woman had a greater benefit to cost ratio (i.e. amount of sex and benefit to your life v.s. personal cost) than game, then he would do it. This is clearly immoral, as it is harming another human in a major way.

orographic · 2013-09-27T18:21:52+00:00

I don't understand all this talk about morality. TRP is about knowledge relating to sexual strategy. TRP does not provide moral framework. TRP members decide on their own how they want to use TRP knowledge and determine their own moral framework. Yes, most TRP guys are interested in having a lot of causal uncommitted sex. However, there are plenty of guys who are interested in marriage and family too. We have people from all social backgrounds and political philosophies.

[deleted] · 2013-09-27T15:49:40+00:00

Trigger Warning: CATHOLIC-MODE ENGAGE!

Well, first of all, there's no morality system for the blue pill.

But aside...

Morality and ethics are concerned with seeking "the good life." A certain flavor of moral absolutism, mine, and that of the Catholic Church, is the singular and only ethical system that I have ever found which strives to enable both the individual, and the society to have "the good life," by any and all measurement. That Catholics routinely fail to live up to this standard is a separate and unrelated issue. It does not in any way detract from the notion that these objective standards exist.

Catholic morality is absolutist, in the sense that it considers both utilitarian ethics, and deontological ethics, and says that an action is not moral unless it would be ethical according to both standards.

In that sense, TRP fails to live up to both standards, it doesn't even pretend to try.

soulcakeduck · 2013-09-27T18:14:07+00:00

To me morality is about judgment and action. I don't get what TBP is saying morally because most will say, do what you want. But if what I want is to sleep with everyone women in the world, spurn commitment and tell others to do the same, I've somehow done something morally reprehensible. If I ask whats an alternative, they don't have one, but they are certain I'm wrong.

Title	Moral Absolutism Part 2
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	3
Comments	65
Date	September 27, 2013 3:26 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1n945o/moral_absolutism_part_2/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/moral-absolutism-part-2.286734 https://theredarchive.com/post/286734

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