Testosterone, personality, and intelligence.

[deleted] · 2013-12-16T01:35:01+00:00

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Tway_the_Parley · 2013-12-19T14:44:50+00:00

I think many of the posters and you have neglected the fact that Intelligence and IQ is actually malleable and depending on your environment, will change as you age. With that in mind, low t =/= high IQ/analytical skills, and high t =/= average IQ/analytical skills.

Also, considering your argument about smartest people leading the world, and low t being a dominant culture. I believe that this might be true at the management level, but at the executive level, if you are not alpha enough, unless you are truly gifted at manipulating people without having to be assertive (Which is impossible) you would never get onto that level, so I do not believe in the "neutering" of men as you put it in your argument. Have you ever seen a beta dictator? A beta president who isn't a puppet? People with alpha characteristics fall into Leadership roles for a reason, they have the support of a majority of their peers, who themselves wield different degrees of power.

While I have no concerns on the alpha characteristics of our leaders, what I believe we should be concerned about is the incorrect education of how men should act in relationships by the media (be supplicant and let the woman get her way). Which leads to unhappy relationships and horrible marriages.

On a side note, if a person has too much t, he inverdantly becomes excessively aggressive and will break social norms more easily, Our society has contracts in place to deal with them (police, law).

redblueredblue222 · 2013-12-16T17:00:44+00:00

First off

Studies have shown that high IQ in men correlates with low testosterone.

Reported because you don't provide any studies that show this, even when asked by Masterrod. You go off on a tangent.

Second

The theory of testosterone leading to variability in men (smarter and dumber) does not come from pubescent testosterone in the gonads. It comes from the knowledge that prenatal testosterone acts as a neurotoxin. The idea that sometimes this neurotoxin has unpredictable effects is what is thought to lead to this high variance on both ends of the spectrum.

This effect is independent of pubescent "high testosterone" or "low testosterone" adult males.

Please provide sources to support your point.

I_say_aye · 2013-12-16T02:15:53+00:00

For this to hold true, we first have to make the assumption that IQ and intelligence correlate significantly for the IQ test to be a measure of intelligence. Then, we have to ask the question of whether or not intelligence is what society ACTUALLY rewards.

If we assume the first question to be correct, then we run into the problem of society not just rewarding intelligence. Society doesn't care about IQ and intelligence in itself. Society rewards the value that it BELIEVES that it gets from the work that you do. I would say intelligence would help you accomplish something that is more valued, but it is in no way necessary.

Without seeing these studies, I cannot know for certain if the inverse, high testosterone equals low IQ, is true. That's also a false assumption on your part, assuming the inverse is true without having established direct causation between the two variables.

But even supposing that is true, as I said, society does not just value intelligence. It values what you can create, and since higher testosterone creates higher risk taking, more "alpha" men are more likely to take greater risks to create that value. They are more likely to push for their ideas and to make sure that the products of their intelligence get recognized.

Also, what different direction are you talking about? There are many thoughts that I have about all the directions that this could take.

Is this a good thing? Well, it's been like this presumably since the beginning of the human race, unless something has happened in the past few hundred years to suddenly make people with less testosterone smarter. And that has led us to exactly the state that we are in now. So I guess it depends on who you are.

Cask_Strength_Islay · 2013-12-17T17:45:15+00:00

Just spitballing here, but because this study focuses on high and low testosterone children, wouldn't this just mean that children with higher testosterone have too much energy to sit for long periods of time to take tests?

I'm basing this off the idea that high testosterone usually corresponds with higher activity/energy levels, and with recess and lunch times getting shorter and shorter, higher testosterone kids don't really have the outlet to expend that energy to be able to focus on tests or in the classroom.

As people in the psychology realm like to say, correlation does not imply causation.

CFRProflcopter · 2013-12-16T00:39:23+00:00

I would hypothesize that modern feminism has created a dysgenic effect, where relatively lower intelligence / higher physically attractive males have a new reproductive advantage over the more beta / successful / intelligent males in society. TRP is a reaction to this shift in desirability.

This, coupled with Government as husband replacement for an alpha that becomes a deadbeat dad exacerbates this effect. I am aware of the Flynn Effect, but the general increase in IQs over time (presumably due to improvements in our environment) is by no means reliable 100 years from now or more. In fact, I read recently the Flynn Effect had virtually stopped or slowed significantly. We've basically squeezed what can be squeezed by improving our environmental condition for most people (perhaps not for the lowest socioeconomic groups yet though).

I read another study recently that claims that 58% of educational success in school can be directly linked to genetic factors alone. I was only surprised by the relatively low number, I had expected it to be higher.

masterrod · 2013-12-16T02:42:35+00:00

Studies have shown that high IQ in men correlates with low testosterone.

Post some cause I would bet people with higher IQs don't go to the gym, sit around around a lot and thus have lower testosterone.

I think you're making a blanket statement about testosterone production that is too far reaching Since Testerone and IQ cant' possibility correlate, without out a statement on lifestyles your point is a bit moot.

UCSB Anthropologists Study Testosterone Spikes in Non-Competitive Activities

13 Ways to Boost Your Testosterone

Web MD

There is also a study that matters a lot, i don't have link, that states that Testosterone production is related to winning. In my experience, people with high IQs tend not to win very much. More important practical IQ, or the ability to do something successfully repeatedly would boost your T levels. And would make you attractive to women, based on this singular characteristic of attraction.

Is this a good thing? Should the smartest people be making decisions and exerting the most influence? Do any red pillers think that this might "neuter" men further?

Well, it's not good or bad. Your T-Level, is based on your lifestyle. But that isn't factor in attraction. Should. Who knows, if it works we do it. I think winning is good. Men that can win should win, simple as that.

[deleted] · 2013-12-16T22:25:39+00:00

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CFRProflcopter · 2013-12-17T01:57:24+00:00

You'd have to measure different types of intelligence (spatial vs emotional vs creative/ communicative, fluid intelligence, working memory and working memory capacity) and then determine their relative worth to the hierarchy in society, though I think the fact that we've made it thus far means that whatever aggregate intelligences our species has works best when all are present to one degree or another.

The correlation may not be causation. People with low testosterone may just have been more drawn to intellectual development of a kind directly measurable by a standard IQ test. There's also been no evidence that IQ is directly correlated with success in life. In fact, there are many people with mensa level IQs not in positions of great power, wealth or influence, but rather living simple lives. This should give us some information to work with on whether that's a good measure to be using.

The funny thing is that much of the things higher testosterone men gravitate towards are natural nootropics, so it would seem that the quest to reach optimal neural efficiency in output is parallel to the common byproduct of having a buttload of testosterone, physical fitness awareness.

Edit: Source: I'm a gym rat who's also into a variety of intellectual topics. I like lifting heavy weights and being a manly man, but I also vastly enjoy mental stimulation and ideation. IQ 132 at last measurement but.. like I said.. there's limited correlation between high IQ and success.

roe_ · 2013-12-16T15:23:44+00:00

Too many variables to pick out which tactics will lead to a "better society" or whatever based on tangled relationships between social status, testosterone and IQ.

Speaking for myself, I just want a society that's comfortable with masculinity, and that has mechanisms in place for leveraging masculine preferences and traits into civilization-supporting activities. Kind of like the old patriarchal model, but with new technologies in place and a few of the stricter gender roles loosened.

That is, it's become clear to me that 3rd-wave feminism's primary strategy for dealing with men is to pressure them into suppressing inconvenient instincts while using their positive instincts against their self-interest. This is failing.

Title	Testosterone, personality, and intelligence.
Author	CFRProflcopter
Upvotes	6
Comments	90
Date	December 16, 2013 12:26 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1sywc3/testosterone_personality_and_intelligence/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/testosterone-personality-and-intelligence.286485 https://theredarchive.com/post/286485

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