At what point do incorrect beliefs equal "wandered off into myths"?

NoFaithInThisSub · 2019-05-24T21:41:03+00:00

But what about those who say abortion is fine, homosexuality is fine, there are more than two genders, men and women are the same, women have the same rights to eldership in the Church, divorce for any reason is fine, pre/extramarital sex, etc 'progressive' church beliefs. Or even some Catholic beliefs such as praying to Mary or the immaculate conception?

Obviously, these ideas are far from preaching a different gospel

they are preaching a different gospel, because everything in that list is not Bible.

rocknrollchuck · 2019-05-24T04:09:43+00:00

At what point do we judge (for sake of argument, grant that the judgement is done in humility and in love [John 7:24, 1 Corinthians 5:12]), that because of these beliefs the individual or church hold, we say that they are goats [Matthew 25:32]?

It depends on whether we are judging their character or their actions.

Matthew 7:1-5 says “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

But then John 7:24 says "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

So when you look at the whole of God's Word, here's what it is saying: we are allowed to judge with right judgment. What does that mean? Well, put quite simply, it's not wrong for us to say something is wrong if God has already said it's wrong. It's okay to say lying is wrong, stealing is wrong, adultery is wrong - because God has already said that those things are wrong. We are simply in agreement with God when we do that.

It's two different things, though, to judge a person's character and a person's actions.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:21-22 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire."

So it's one thing to call someone a fool - you've judged their character, which is not for us to do - only God can do that. It's quite another to call out the foolish things another person has done - when we do this, we are agreeing with God that those things are wrong.

So when we call people goats, we are judging their character, and that is wrong - that is reserved for God alone to judge. We would be wise to say instead "Their preaching is not sound doctrine" so we are judging their actions, not their character.

But what about those who say abortion is fine, homosexuality is fine, there are more than two genders, men and women are the same, women have the same rights to eldership in the Church, divorce for any reason is fine, pre/extramarital sex, etc 'progressive' church beliefs. Or even some Catholic beliefs such as praying to Mary or the immaculate conception?

Obviously, these ideas are far from preaching a different gospel, but they also are denying fundamental truths about God's creation and are causing great harm.

No, they ARE preaching a "different gospel", one that is not the true gospel, and THAT'S what should be addressed. It is perfectly within the bounds of Scripture to say that.

I've been wrestling with how to separate the beliefs of those who are 'weaker' in their faith, but are saved nonetheless

2 Timothy 4:2 - Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.
James 5:19-20 - My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
1 Thessalonians 5:14 - And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all.
2 Timothy 2:24-26 - And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

vs those who implicitly reject Christ through rejection of certain truth.

1 Corinthians 5:11 - But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
Romans 16:17 - Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.
Matthew 18:15-17 - If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

This is not an exhaustive list, but should be enough Scripture to support my conclusion.

Red-Curious · 2019-05-24T14:38:12+00:00

Obviously, these ideas are far from preaching a different gospel, but they also are denying fundamental truths about God's creation and are causing great harm.

A couple people have honed in on this, so let me simplify what I think they're trying to say by saying it's a different gospel.

God is God. We have the option to follow him or not. Some people decide they don't like God because his views don't align with theirs. So, they create their own ideology of what they think their god should really be like - they make a god in their own image. Then they worship that god and say it's the same God of the Bible. In reality, they are following a different god, but use the Bible to say they're worshiping the same God of the Bible.

It's like if my wife were to say she's married to RC and she describes RC as a muscular guy who is 6' tall, blue eyes, and has black hair. Well, the reality is that I have blonde hair. She says, "But remember that one time you had black hair?" and I say, Yeah, I put on a wig for a play and had it on for all of 2 hours. That wasn't my hair, it was just a way I expressed my appearance for a brief, specific time for a brief, specific purpose. But she still goes around saying that she's married to a black-haired man. Is she really talking about me at that point? No, her husband does not have black hair. She's talking about some made-up version of me that isn't real. The more deviating characteristics she builds into her perception of me, the less and less she's actually talking about me with others. Instead, she's talking about what she wishes I would be (no, my wife has never actually done this; it's just an illustration). When someone hears of me from her descriptions and finally meets me, are they likely to recognize me? Have they learned who I am at all or are they going to find I'm someone completely different from what they've been picturing all these years?

When we share about Jesus with others, they develop a perception of who he is and they worship that perception. When they meet the real Jesus on Judgment Day are they going to be able to say, "Yep, that's him. That's the guy I loved and worshiped all my life!" Or are they going to say, "Who are you? You're not at all what I imagined," to which he'll respond, Yeah, because you were never actually worshiping ME in the first place.

Where is the line between "Oh, sorry, I thought you had black hair" and "Oh, sorry, I never would have recognized you based on the description your wife gave"? I have no clue.

ruizbujc · 2019-05-24T05:42:32+00:00

In my experience, this discernment is either uniquely gifted to some people (i.e. the spiritual gift of discernment of spirits) or, more commonly, it's something that's developed very gradually over time. What's most deceptive is when someone develops a taste for discernment early on in their walk and assume that because they can discern between when it's ok and not to be angry that suddenly they can discern everything, like when it's okay and not to insult someone. In reality, what they're often doing is learning from a general perception of their congregation's culture and what the leadership will and won't support, then assuming that's the Holy Spirit.

Another fallacy on discernment is that its foundation is a keen perception of what is wrong. The biblical reality, as evidence from numerous places in Scripture, is that the foundation of discernment is found in a devoted lifestyle of doing what is right. If someone claims to have discernment, but is not actively making disciples or building relationships with non-believers or is not spending regular time in the Word or in prayer, etc. - I would never trust such a man's discernment. He can't even discern his own fallacy in failing to live out the great commission the way Jesus modeled.

But when you have someone who is living appropriately, who has a mission that their life is oriented toward completing, and who draws from the work of the Spirit in their life rather than the work of philosophy in their heads - that person I would trust.

Will such a person be right every time? No. At the end of the day, there are disputable matters for a reason. I believe that reason is because God intentionally wants people on different sides of the line for his own purposes - and I could go well into that if the conversation demands it. Suffice it to say that, as you note, God has arranged things so that a thing can be sin for one person but not another. But there are other matters where the line is much clearer and simply shouldn't be crossed by anyone.

In my discretion, that line is most easily recognized by those who are actively living for Christ. The frame illustration can also help. Also notice that Jesus doesn't say "seek first a happy, loving relationship with me and all these things will be added to you as well" - he says, "seek first His Kingdom and His Righteousness." That's a huge difference that many people in the church miss. Focus not on your own relational feelings toward God, but on his feelings toward you and what you're doing with your life. The first camp will discern what they believe to be right because they're focused on their own perception, whereas the second camp will discern what God believes is right because they're focused on his perception and living in his frame.

I know this isn't super clear, but it's the best I've got. And I'm sure someone who disagrees with me on any point will claim to be mature and that their method of discernment is better. At the end of the day the Holy Spirit is the one who is responsible for guiding us and teaching us truth. I may attribute my discernment to the Spirit and someone else may attribute theirs to the Spirit as well, and who knows which of us is right? Perhaps that's why Jesus said blasphemy of the Spirit is the unforgiveable sin in the context of attributing ungodly things to the Spirit - to make people extremely cautious against the whole "God told me so" argument, preserving the integrity of the work of the Spirit in the world. Good luck figuring it all out, though! Don't expect a definitive answer, and if you find someone who gives you one, be skeptical and cautious.

Willow-girl · 2019-05-24T04:15:39+00:00

A few random thoughts ... I think there is room for sincere differences of opinion between believers.

I also think people are convicted of some things over the course of their walk. It doesn't necessarily happen all at once. What's the old saying? "Be patient, God isn't finished with me yet"?

Also, we're told we can judge people by their fruits, and I've generally found this to be useful.

Title	At what point do incorrect beliefs equal "wandered off into myths"?
Author	ihavequestionns
Upvotes	11
Comments	14
Date	May 24, 2019 1:20 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/RPChristians
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RPChristians/comments/bsavzn/at_what_point_do_incorrect_beliefs_equal_wandered/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RPChristians/at-what-point-do-incorrect-beliefs-equal-wandered.301281 https://theredarchive.com/post/301281

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