Does Honor Exist?

dropit_sphere · 2013-12-27T16:26:03+00:00

In the spirit of truth, bloviating analysis, and no sacred cows, I humbly offer what I think of as the Red Pill take on honor:

First. It's important to note that people mean different things with the same word. Some people mean personal integrity, or keeping one's word and living up to one's ideals. This is the understanding a Boy Scout has.

Another meaning is adulation, or awards. "I'm honored to be invited to speak tonight on..."

Finally, there's the fame/badassery meaning, ascribed to samurai, hotheaded American statesman (duels to the death), and maybe like, Braveheart or something. In this view, honor is something to be won on the battlefield. Points for "fair play"---swords are more honorable than guns, six-shooters more honorable than machine guns, machine guns more honorable than bombs. Exception: machine guns are honorable if you're the Red Baron.

At first glance, these meanings have nothing to do with each other---you have congruence/integrity, public adulation, and ninja skills. It is very easy to imagine a person with one or some of these but not all. Try and place these: a 12-yr-old Boy Scout, Justin Bieber, Butch Cassidy, the Pope, Darth Vader, Batman. (The answer is that the first three have one definition of honor, respectively, and the second two have honor under two definitions but not the third).

So all of this has been leading up to my thesis, which is:

Honor is your eligibility to join the tribe of badass men.

(Heuristically---this seems right, because two modern groups that make a big deal about honor, the military and the Mob, are both fill of badass men)

Pretend you're a badass dude. Unfortunately, you are only one badass dude, and there's only so much you can do by yourself. You need buddies.

Who do you want? Well, ideally, you want a)other badasses, who b)won't stab you in the back.

I mean, right? If you're picking teams for pickup basketball, those are my criteria: good, and not a ballhog.

A group that can attract badass men, and can get them to act in the interests of the group rather than their own interests, will have a significant edge over other groups. One way groups maintain prosocial behavior within the group is through harsh punishment---this is why the Mafia kills for betrayal and military law quotes death as a possible punishment for desertion---because neither of those groups are fucking around. This is why the military and frats have hazing rituals---to decrease the chance of a guy joining but not adhering to the rules.

An aside, for a bit: so far I have been talking about men. What does honor look like for women? If your answer is "Mulan, " take two red pills and call me in the morning. No, female honor is: keeping one's legs and mouth shut. Why? Because this is what the tribe of badass men wants. A slut is alright for recreation, but is too unreliable to be in the tribe of badass men. An adulteress will turn the group against itself, threatening its unity and therefore its survival. (It might be best to think of the construct of honor as military technology---specifically, the techniques of getting men to work and fight together, which is undeniably superior to a bunch of lone wolves). Similarly, a woman who causes trouble by stirring up discord threatens the survival of the group.

Now, how does this answer the OP's question?

It does not say what the "right" thing to do is. Horrible things have been done in the name of honor---gang fights continue because neither side can afford to look weak. Great things have been done without honor---a poor mother who always says she's not hungry so her kids can eat a bit better, for instance.

The important thing to note: Civilization is built on honor. My cushy life is possible because a)my nation's military is more badass than criminals, b)my nation's military works in the interests of the group, rather than setting up a military government, and c)everyone knows my nation's military is badass.

And here's the rub: women have no honor today, as defined by the legs-and-mouth-shut metric. They're not keeping up their part of the bargain that is Civilization. This makes women's cries about men not being honorable ring a bit hollow.

What is the answer to this? What is to be done? I have no answer.

EDIT: I am literally falling asleep while writing this, so sorry if it's a bit incoherent. Brett McKay wrote a great blog post series on honor at Art of Manliness, and Jack Donovan wrote basically a whole book on it called The Way of Men. I highly highly recommend both.

shakaldrogo · 2013-12-27T02:42:45+00:00

Whoever that girl is, don't fuck her. She isn't worth the trouble.

FinalEquin0x · 2013-12-27T06:16:07+00:00

Honor is a virtue.

It should be treated as such.

Being an honorable man is a perseverance of many, but very open to interpretation by the masses.

I think important parts of honor are being a man of your word, showing respect to those who've earned it, and bringing justice to the weak.

Being a man of your word should always be followed as a general guideline for all men. Also, it sets up for some really RP moments to boot. Let's say a women begins to discuss your promise to someone, you explain, I told them this, I will do this. Its very dominating and shows that you have great self-respect.

Do I show respect to women on the first hang out time (never date, encourages princess mentality)? Not really, I treat her like one of the guys, with a bit of extra negging and teasing here and there (me and my buds don't neg and tease as much as other groups form what I've gathered). By the time we are hanging out for the fourth time I usually give some respect while still enforcing my dominance. Helps her self-esteem while retaining RP frame.

I believe firmly in the principle of never beating a man while he's down. Never. If a certain friend in the group is getting the insults/teases/neggs piled up on him, I try to draw the group's attention to something else. Lets him save face, gets me in good with a brother, and best of all, I pick out the new topic of our interest showing my dominance and Alpha status.

Honor is again, open to many various interpretations. Interested in other's opinions though. Wondering if I'm on the right track (new to RP)

648262 · 2013-12-27T09:52:37+00:00

You should still put yourself first. And that means that you should not do it if the long-term cost of lying, cheating and stealing is higher than being a "gent".

The idea behind TRP is realization that the world is not filled with gents and ladies, though the people try real hard to present itself as they are. The crossroad can then take you down the path of actually being a gent, or the path down into the jungle. As long as we are aware of what is going on then it's all good. You won't lie, cheat and steal every day - sometimes you'll do good things. And you will lie, cheat and steal as a gent, but you'll try not to. So failing will have different consequences.

Title	Does Honor Exist?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	12
Comments	11
Date	December 27, 2013 2:37 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1ts2my/does_honor_exist/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/does-honor-exist.9273 https://theredarchive.com/post/9273

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