Chivalry.Why it doesn't it work anymore? Most importantly , how could it be working in the past? Are not women the same?

mrust · 2014-01-12T20:19:16+00:00

I think you mean 1400's rather than 40's. Rollo had a few articles on this topic: http://therationalmale.com/2013/01/02/the-feminine-imperative-circa-1300/

Short version: Chivalry never worked even going back 800 years.

RedPillD · 2014-01-12T19:52:14+00:00

From /r/AskHistorians

"Chivalry" in the sense that you and your male relative were discussing is indeed an archaic system of courtesies that reflected what was an overarching custom in every civilization. Namely, that men and women of a certain social class had different displays of deference to one another, which were themselves reflective of one's elite status. Without getting into the anthropology of it all, 18th century "chivalry" was a highly modified set of rules that were adapted from about six hundred years of constantly changing rules of courtly etiquette. The origin of chivalry as a cultural concept came out of the crusades, and credit is due to Eleanore of Aquitaine who introduced a great many of the ideals of what became the Code du Chevalier during the High Middle Ages. The consequences of the first three crusades included a radical restructuring of courtly society, and a shift in the cultural concept of knighthood. Whereas the pre-crusade knights of western Europe were wealthy mounted warriors very much steeped in a tradition of combat and bloodshed, the Chivalric Code served to hold these men up to higher expectations of civility. They included a lot of rules for the proper and honourable treatment of other well-born combatants, mercy to commoners, fairness on the battlefield, and (this is perhaps Eleanore's contribution) respectful conduct toward noble women. Courtly love as a game of chaste romance in the court of Poitiers is the source of much of what we refer to as "chivalry", in the sense that many of these archaic courtesies are no longer practiced with regularity. Most of the original Code of Chivalry emphasized conduct on the battlefield and on the march. The chivalrous customs of courtly love were perpetuated by popular works of literature such as La Morte D'Arthur. By the Regency period in England, the etiquette of a gentleman towards men and women of similar status had become independent of the setting of the royal court, or one's membership within the royal cavalry. It was a way of showing off one's good breeding, and was emulated by those of the lower classes. The so-called "death" of chivalry was not actually an end to a tradition, but an evolution of cultural customs. Whereas the origins of these courtesies were confined to a small segment of the population on occasions of great importance, we recreate the same pagentry at weddings, formal dances, quinceañeras, etc. TL;DR: Chivalrous courtesies of the type you were discussing reflected the inequalities of archaic societies, but themselves originated with cultural reforms meant to promote respect and kindness towards women.

Here is a link to the thread. http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/13coay/male_chivalry_what_is_the_reason_and_context/

toysjoe · 2014-01-13T00:57:11+00:00

These views are not mine. They belong to a user named jagrmeister on the MGTOW forums. I'm just paraphrasing it here. I could only wish to be able to come up with something like this.

Women, pre-feminism, around the 40s, played "love game". They were attracted to positive traits that had benefits in a civilized society, such as chivalry, job security, etc. Even if a woman was attracted to the "bad boy" type, the rest of society (her friends, family, strangers) served as a check to make sure that she doesn't make a bad decision. If she did, she would be outcasted and shamed.

Fast forward to post-feminism, women have switched from love game to slut game. Any checks that keeps the hamster desire for bad boys with no inherent useful qualities was deemed "oppressive". People aren't allowed to tell a woman that her drug addict boyfriend who pushes shopping carts for a living isn't good for her. Women go crazy chasing alphas that pump and dump them, leaving them unable to pair bond.

By the time they're 30, they've learned to resent men and no self-respecting man wants a relationship and a family with one of these women.

To answer your question of why chivalry doesn't work anymore, chivalry was a winning play according to Love Game rules. The rules have changed. It is now slut game, and under the rules of this game, chivalry is a losing move.

Another part, I think, is that men don't know whether chivalry is good or bad. On the one hand, women say they want a chivalrous man, but then some feminists come and say chivalry is just sexism.

PUAs adapted to and play by the rules of Slut Game.

MGTOWs observed the rules of Slut Game and deemed it not worth playing.

Nice Guys and Blue-Pillers are still playing Love Game.

In case I mis-paraphrased it, you can read jagrmeister's full text here yourself.

Hamilton5M · 2014-01-12T20:38:49+00:00

It still works if you are affluent.

Chivalry is a form of socially expected behaviours, based on economic class.

At a low demographic, it has no place and is not seen for what it is. Once it was emulated by the poorer classes in an attempt to emulate the elite.

If you travel, just go anywhere that has money. It's not only common, but expected and with real penalties for being breached.

masterworman · 2014-01-12T20:39:37+00:00

So you all think , opening a door to a girl or at least giving her the lead(etc.) is hurting your game? Should I ditch these?

W-Z-R · 2014-01-13T15:09:13+00:00

Think about what you associate chivalry with...

...being a knight.

Knights, had wealth, status and that hero factor of being known for going out and slaying enemies. Are you a CEO, the Prince of England, a captain in the military etc? If not your chivalry won't really come from a position of power.

W_O_M_B_A_T · 2014-01-12T20:37:21+00:00

Because alpha role-models these days act the exact opposite way, and women see them being rewarded for it.

Partly this shift in behavior has to do with the abundance of resources in today's society. Being a more aggressive and obvious competitor pays off.

Several hundred years ago years ago, you didn't get power and status if you weren't a "class act" in public. It wasn't productive to burn bridges.

TheLawlessMan · 2014-01-13T23:49:27+00:00

One word: Feminism

[deleted] · 2014-01-12T16:51:02+00:00

It was a slow erosion of what chivalry was, and how it worked in a relationship. Not like one day it was working, then the next day, opening a door for a women was a misogynistic thing to do (I'm making it sound extreme there).

Has to do with how women are utilizing the change in social culture to advance their own short term gains, while trying to minimize the negative long term impact. Meaning that if a woman can bang a lot of dudes, and still get the 'perfect man' at the end of the gangbang rainbow, they would naturally go after that paradigm. That worked for maybe 10-20 years.

Problem with that is these perfect men, and men in general, are now realizing wtf is going on, and the women, now that their paradigm is being threatened, lash out to make it someone else's fault (divorce financial rape) to protect their ego and state of mind.

It's a common thing a kid would do before admitting they're wrong. I'm guilty of that a while back, as well as during the blue pill days as a weak ass dude.

So the chivalry thing began to die out after men began to realize that: 1. There was no perceived benefit or appreciation of the chivalrous act, and 2. we don't need to do the chivalrous acts with women putting out in their young ages to 'find themselves' with lower requirements than the expired/post-wall women.

So: chicken vs. the egg situation. Did men create the situation where chivalry died out, or did women force it?

I'd say both, weak ass guys trying to appeal to women's logic centers let women get away with the bang session lifestyle, passively validating the behavior (maybe like how Hitler came to power through willful ignorance...i'm simplifying that to an extreme).

Women then cemented that attitude, and we're now in the era where the 'good guys' (meaning fit, wealthy, aware men) aren't going to be playing the games with older women, when there is younger meat with less standards on the market.

That's my take on it, and of course it's much more complex than just these two influences. Also doesn't mean that I find it appropriate either way

Zidzan · 2014-01-12T16:48:58+00:00

Women would like to be free and do things themselves. This has especially become apparent during recent years. Men are being blamed for everything wrong in the world. Wars are told to be our fault, hate of other people stems from the "Patriarchy". Fun fact, all this "Male hate" stems from the women, or at least the feminist, side of society.

Over time, these men that are told things are there fault by these women pass it down to their sons, along with the fathers hate of women for blaming him. The child grows with the mentality of "Why should I be chivalrous? Women are why my father was driven to drink."

Edit:First part is a tad out of place. Nothing wrong with women wanting to be free. But the hatred ejected by feminism to supply it members with the will to fight for the cause is misplaced. Had to make it clear that this hate was pushed by a wish to be free and an increase in fervor, or more importantly, that this increase in fervor is caused by hate propaganda.

fruitofmyloom · 2014-01-12T16:52:48+00:00

It works just fine. I am chivalrous before I "consensually rape" them (a phrase one used in a text recently. Edit: as in "I like it when you consensually rape me"). Chivalry is a way of building comfort so you can have your way with them when you want.

The trick is not to be a doormat and do not be chivalrous if they are undeserving.

Title	Chivalry.Why it doesn't it work anymore? Most importantly , how could it be working in the past? Are not women the same?
Author	masterworman
Upvotes	14
Comments	12
Date	January 12, 2014 4:35 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/askTRP
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/asktrp/comments/1v1bl6/chivalrywhy_it_doesnt_it_work_anymore_most/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/askTRP/chivalrywhy-it-doesnt-it-work-anymore-most.138774 https://theredarchive.com/post/138774

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