So after the shooting in Orlando, I had a conversation yesterday where the other party degenerated into 'No one needs guns!' and 'Just leave it to the police!' I had to laugh at that, because most of my ancestors were marched off at gunpoint and forcibly relocated to Oklahoma. The police, as far as they existed back then, were nowhere to be found when that was happening or were complicit in it. I was generally dismissive and called the notion 'Naive at best', said so, and laughed it off. The person in question got mad, but didn't say anything else.

In short, I've found that these types of people refuse to believe that anything bad will happen, until it happens to them, and if it does happen, that someone else will be along to fix it for them. Usually they degenerate into emotional statements and can't really back up anything other than 'guns bad!'

I'd mostly say that my argument is that, historically, people who are unable to or refuse to defend themselves and rely on the government to treat them fairly usually get fucked, be it native Americans, the Tulsa race riots, or many of the returning vets who get run through tons of red tape to get the benefits the government agreed to when they signed up.

At least one instance I was thinking of was that France had fairly restrictive gun laws, and the guys who stormed Charlie Hebdo were still pretty heavily armed. I was also thinking of Norway, and Anders Breivik. Can anyone else point out a few good historical instances that are pro-gun and pro-self defense for me?