Hey all,

So a recent post about the quality of this sub (a lot of oneitis and desperate pleas for motivtional help, etc, lately) just inspired me to share a thought I arrived at based on a recent experience. I look forward to feedback - even if I'm wrong and get torn apart.

Background: A couple of years ago, I read a post here about f-closing and how some women want sex to "just happen", as opposed to discussing it ahead of time, because to discuss is to plan, and to plan is to give up the option of being able to say it just happened. Ergo, a woman gives up her plausible deniability by being honest about just wanting to fuck, and, if nothing else (assuming you are honorable and don't brag all over town about it), may just end up feeling some degree of "slut shame".

Now I hadn't thought about that for a long time, and met a girl who, over a period of maybe a month or two, made it very clear that she was interested in me though her body language, eye contact, and verbal banter. We set up a date and ended up at my place twice in one night. First time to watch a movie while waiting for the show we were going to to start. We made out. Second time, making out again, heavy petting, I tell her that I'd like to hold off on sex, because I thought she was special, and I thought that she thought I was special, and sex is INCREDIBLE when you wait, even just for date #2, or whatever, for someone you want BAD. She said she agreed, and I thought it was on for next time

I know, that's terrible endgame. Obviously it didn't happen.

The failure came because even though I've done this with women before, the previous women appreciated that I gave them the option of, "I want something more", vs. "I just want to fuck.", and I forgot to give this woman the option. I just made it sound like a tall order; It must've sounded like "I want you to be my girlfriend".

After much rumination on the ensuing friendzone situation, which has since fallen apart because of the conflicted emotions we both feel, I have finally come to the conclusion that I should've just let it "happen" that first night. What happened was I took away her plausible deniability by leaving it to her to say she just wanted to fuck. She couldn't say that, or she'd have slut-shamed herself. Some women can, but don't ever assume any woman can.

tl;dr: Trying to communicate that you're genuinely interested in the person (especially in the context of pursuing a relationship) during the endgame takes away her plausible deniability, and makes an unfairly tall order that will probably scare her off. If you want to discuss it beforehand, do not leave it to her to offer a casual sex option, because she may not be secure enough to do so. Do it youself, unless you're on a date with Ann of Green Gables. Best bet is to try and assess the emotional and sexual maturity of the individual, and decide whether to talk it through or just "let it happen" based on that assessment.