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[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Elaborating on 12, girls like sex as much as guys (or more).
[–]Qlue- 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
This is true, but they love power more than sex, as sex is easy for them to get. Therefore the reason the pick up community exists is because some of those women want "attention" or "money" for sex, and "pick up techniques" are ways to bypass those 2 filters, but that is a waste of time and a trap because difficult women remain difficult.
You can spend an hour trying to win over a girl who isn't interested in you or sex (PUA techniques) get her number and then spend days or weeks texting her, maybe taking her out on several dates, or 30 minutes approaching a bunch of girls and finding one who is interested in you or sex and get laid that night or the next date!
This is the power of escalation. Time wasters hate it when you escalate on them!
[–]JediKaza 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
lol....
[–]DoctorSauce 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
It's all about your intentions. If you're just trying to get laid, then that's probably true. If you're looking for a relationship, it's not necessarily true.
[–]Qlue- -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Even then, would you want a relationship with a woman who uses sex as a form of manipulation by withholding it or using it as a bargaining chip later on?
[–]L3SSTH4NTHR33 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Just because they don't immediately have sex with you doesn't mean they will use that as a tool against you. I don't get why that works on people anyway?
[–]Qlue- -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
For me it's by second date or a one night stand, but I put 3-4 in there for guys who are beginners.
[–]Royale28 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
This guy has some good points, but he doesn't see that he contradicted himself. Girls want the "whole package" So someone who has studied pickup will have a better personality, lifestyle, etc. Therefore pickup is worth learning. HOWEVER, he is right in the analysis paralysis. That's why you need to be constantly doing sets.
[–]Qlue- -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
If you believe you have control over other people's thoughts, beliefs, emotions and behaviours, then you are ruining your package because you will blame yourself for things not in your control, self-criticism and blame is the fastest way to depression and anxiety. However if you believe that you cannot influence other people and you accept yourself, then your self esteem will grow and you will not fear expressing yourself, and people will like you more. So there is no contradiction. There is no studying "pick up", there is only being a normal social dude and pushing your comfort zone when it comes to touching women and taking them home.
[–]Royale28 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
You definitely do have control over peoples emotions and behaviours and thats not even from a pickup standpoint but from a universal standpoint. Everything you are saying implies that we must have a solid inner game which is an extension of this pickup community. Stop reading "The Game" and start reading the newer material out there.
Pretty much i'll sum up what you just wrote: Don't be outcome dependant(pickup theory), don't blame yourself or defeat yourself(pickup inner game), Strong confidence and inner game = more women(pretty universal modern pickup theory), Be a "normal" social guy and push your comfort zone(approach, be social etc) (beating Approach anxiety).
There's a reason why people write this stuff hotshot, because it is a solid foundation to being socially viable for women, and moreso, people in general.
[–]Qlue- 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I'm familiar with all the newer stuff, it's just an extension of the bad mindsets. Outcome dependence is an example of this, how can you be outcome independent if your goal is to get something like an fclose or kiss? Furthermore now you have more things to worry about, "Was I being outcome dependent with that girl? Aww shit!" See how inner game is also bullshit? I'm saying don't read psychology books, don't worry about inner game, just go out and be social and push your comfort zone. Everything else is a waste of mental energy and will only cause damage.
Most of pick theory is not needed and is only detrimental because it makes you self conscious and creates the impression that there is something wrong with you that needs fixing.
And no you have no control over other people, you can suggest things to them but ultimately it is they that decide, which is why you can never get 100% results.
[–]Royale28 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Oh god, you're one those people who try and play semantic games with things you have little understand about. You can be outcome independent and have goals. You just don't let it bother you when you fail. DERP, therefore outcome independent. Again you say "Was I being outcome dependent with that girl? Aww shit!"....... You are clueless, you just quoted someone who has a bad grasp of inner game. Someone with strong inner game would NOT be outcome dependent and not doubting himself.
Look sport, I see what you're doing here. Blah blah don't read pickup just gogogo talk to girls m8. Honestly most people need that advice and shouldn't get stuck just reading material and not going out there, however, books like "Models" by Manson are tremendous resources for anybody. Nobody who tries to better themselves and their approaches has the mindset that your routine should work 100% of the time. It doesn't make sense. However, you can always up your chances by getting as good as you can with incorporating pickup theory into your persona.
[–]Qlue- 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Not really, you can't be outcome independent if you're trying to be outcome independent. The whole thing is pointless. Inner game is pointless. Yes I know Mark Manson and he knows me too, I'm one of his earlier members. Mark Manson also wrote a large article talking about bullshit inner game topics like "Outcome Independence" and how it's harmful for you.
Despite any belief you have about needing to "learn" something, those are all just excuses you make up in order to allow yourself to take action. Yes, people are that scared that they will only do something if they can control or predict it. They cannot embrace the unknown or chaos, they need to quantify and calculate everything. Guess what though, how are you going to get laid if you don't know routine X or pick up advice number 242 when girl gives you LMR and attempts x,y,z. What will you do then?!?
You can't control or predict all these scenarios, but if you're coming from the right place you don't have to, and PUA is not the right place.
[–]Royale28 -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You are clueless
[–]anotherrookie 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I'm a fairly good looking guy, have great social skills, and find myself talking to new beautiful women every night and have a fun time, however I'm horrible at escalating! Any tips on how to see if there comfortable with physical touching? or how to close after breaking down the social walls?
[–]Qlue- 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Get physically closer, hold her hand. There's tons of escalation guides out there. Start small if you have fear of escalating. Keep it simple and don't overthink it.
[–]sedditdee 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link
The emphasis on "just be normal" sounds a lot like the typical woman's advice to "just be yourself". We all know how well that works for most guys...
Your intention is different, of course, but you've been through (at least) three years of learning how to become very different from most people's definition of "normal".
That's what's tough about teaching a subject to others. It's easy to forget how much you've already learned (and forgotten that you learned -- i.e. all the psychology, theory, techniques, etc.).
To the average guy, what you're saying amounts to "don't learn anything. Just get good". The whole point of pick-up is to help you get from point A (socially/sexually unskilled) to point B (what you're calling "normal"). Experience is the bridge between those two positions.
It's easy to take a polarizing stance and say that "all pickup is great" or "all pickup is useless", but the perspective that will help most guys is probably somewhere in between. The whole purpose of books and other resources is to accelerate your learning by getting the distilled information from people who have already been there. Once you take that approach, it's no longer an "all or nothing" question; use what works for you (through testing the ideas multiple times and through different scenarios in the real world) and throw away the rest.
The rest of your tips tend to center around filtering out women who aren't interested or who use men for attention/money/etc. It's an important point that most guys overlook in their (mostly unjustified) eagerness for a woman's approval.
[–]Qlue- -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
Yes and no. My experience has shown me what is bullshit, which people think you need, but you really don't.
Being normal is just having social skills. Add touching and escalation, and saying "want to go to my place and watch a movie?" and you're done.
The only way to build social skills is to be social. You will learn automatically from experience. The only way to escalate is to touch women and invite them over to your place. No book or theory will do that for you, yes you can break it down into easier steps but that's about it.
This means you have to accept your current situation, the situation of being shitty and failing a lot, until you learn enough that slowly you will become successful. No amount of routines, theories or tactics, can prevent this from happening. Social calibration can only happen from hours you put into practice.
You know what happens when an uncalibrated person uses techniques? He looks even more awkward. The best thing you can do is accept your situation and people will understand. If you use techniques you will just scare people (especially women) away.
Pick up theory is actually detrimental, you need to be more aware and less in your head, and all that stuff puts you in your head. So then the best thing you can do is meditate so that you become more aware in the moment instead of thinking "what do I say? what do I do?" and the second best thing you can do is have a journal to connect with your emotions and reflect on your interactions.
[–]sedditdee -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
You're forgetting that calibration and skill are two different things.
You will learn automatically from experience.
Most people don't "automatically" learn from experience. If you don't know what you should be learning (and you've been socially conditioned to learn the wrong things, as most guys have), depending on "being social" will often lead to more unsatisfactory outcomes. At some point, you have to learn the skills themselves, whether it's from role models or from books (or better yet, a combination of both). Neither will magically appear just because you're out in the world trying to "touch and escalate". You might learn eventually, but the learning curve will be longer and steeper without any guidance to help prevent or correct your mistakes.
Most people would (and often do) give up long before attaining skill if they had to re-invent the wheel in the way that you seem to be suggesting.
Acceptance is also a separate attribute from calibration, skill and experience. Accepting yourself doesn't lead to improvement by itself, nor does it show you a worthwhile path to take. It's like walking around in circles and instead of having a panic attack, you accept walking around in circles. You still have to figure out how to get out of the forest if you want to stop making the same mistakes and wandering down blind alleys. Routines, theories and tactics are (sometimes) field-tested ways of becoming successful without unnecessary diversions, sidetracks and setbacks.
Pick up theory is actually detrimental... so then the best thing you can do is meditate... the second best thing you can do is have a journal.
This is like telling a psychologist that learning about the mind is "detrimental" to helping others, or like telling a physicist that learning mathematics is ancillary compared to becoming "aware", "connecting with your emotions" and "reflecting on your interactions with the Universe".
Meditation can be useful, but it has no specific relationship to being successful with women. Meditating too much can actually put you even more into your own head by creating a preoccupation with "the moment" in situations that are essentially the opposite of a meditatively introspective state (i.e. the bar, the club, or a date where you're creating a playful vibe).
It almost sounds like you have a religious/ideological agenda here, as if some kind of meditation or mindfulness program has convinced you that it's the "one size fits all" panacea for problems in relating to oneself and other people. Unfortunately, it's not that simple, regardless of what the lama, rinpoche or guru (or therapist, or "coach") might want you to believe.
[–]Qlue- 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
You have been learning from experience since you were a baby, and everyone learns from experience, don't discredit the power of your brain. You didn't read a book on riding a bicycle did you? or learning to walk? It is also why I tell people to journal so that they can remember what was the cause that prevented them from succeeding. There is no skill in picking up women, and you keep getting stuck on that idea.
It's funny you project onto me that I am a part of some religious affiliation because I used the word meditation, that is quite ignorant. I am atheist and do not follow anything, including pick up ideologies which you follow.
And yes, psychologists are advised to seek therapy from other psychotherapists, because one cannot be the therapist and the patient at the same time, one cannot self-treat. That is why psychologists are warned about learning such things so they don't develop hypochondria or question their own mental sanity or analyze themselves. Psychologists have one of the highest rates of suicide due to this issue.
This is the same effect pick up has, it makes you doubt yourself "Did I tease her enough? Did I push pull? was I outcome independent? what did I do wrong?" then you begin to internalize that you are not good enough and that you are "broken" which leads to self-esteem issues and host of other problems, which is why almost every pick up guru I read about has a host of mental illnesses.
[–]sedditdee 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
To debunk your nonsense:
Qlue- wrote: You have been learning from experience since you were a baby, and everyone learns from experience, don't discredit the power of your brain. You didn't read a book on riding a bicycle did you? or learning to walk?
1-. The so-called "power of the brain" is largely due to its plasticity -- its ability to learn a wide variety of things, useful and/or unuseful. The idea that your experiences will magically coalesce into useful beliefs is silly, not to mention disproved by the often self-destructive actions of people everywhere. If "experience" was all we needed, life would automatically be self-correcting and we would live in a utopia. That obviously isn't the case.
If someone helped you learn to ride a bicycle or how to walk, that person taught you. This decreases the learning curve. For something more complex like counterintuitive social skills (ones that go against the mass indoctrination about being "Nice", etc.), most people never learn -- precisely because they "buy in" to the myth that their experiences are automatically correct, when they are definitely not.
Qlue- wrote: There is no skill in picking up women, and you keep getting stuck on that idea.
I suppose if you believe that there's no skill in riding a bicycle, then no, there's definitely no skill in social interaction.
And yes, that's a ridiculous belief to hold for anyone who has had to learn the complex rituals and strategies involved in living within a particular culture (this means everyone, including you).
2-. Your overuse and misuse of psychojargon ("projection", "hypochondria", "host of mental illnesses", etc.) is quite telling, as well as your decision to hide behind the word "atheist" as if it isn't an ideology unto itself. Of course atheism is an ideology, just like any religion constitutes an ideology. Both are empirically unprovable, as there is no way to "prove" or "disprove" the existence of a non-physical entity such as a deity.
Speaking of not knowing what you're talking about, you're also wrong about pyschologist suicide.
Qlue- wrote: Psychologists have one of the highest rates of suicide....
The burden of proof lies on the one who makes the assertion (that would be you in this case) but I was curious, so I did a quick bit of research.
A. From the National Institutes of Health (NIH):
Psychologist suicide: Incidence, impact, and suggestions for prevention, intervention, and postvention (click here)
"The committee concluded that there is evidence suggestive of an elevated risk of suicide for psychologists in past decades. It further concluded that there is a need for further research to confirm if there is a heightened risk of suicide for psychologists in the present day, and to determine factors that might contribute to such risk."
Note that the article was inconclusive about what that risk is -- much less "proving" that the risk is "one of the highest" of anything at all.
B. From the American Psychological Association (APA):
Psychologist suicide: What we know and how we can prevent it. (click here)
"In terms of rates, research is mixed and sparse about whether psychologists are more likely to commit suicide than other professions, write the working group members in the June issue of Professional Psychology: Research and Practice (Vol. 42, No. 3). Some studies show elevated rates among white female psychologists, for example, but not among white male psychologists or black psychologists, and there are no studies looking at psychologists of other ethnicities."
The article does mention high rates of "burnout, anxiety or depression" (40-60%) among psychology workers, but there was no correlation to actual suicide.
If you have reliable sources of information that I don't know about, I'd be glad to read and fact-check them for myself.
Your amateur "diagnosis" that "almost every pickup artists is automatically mental ill" is also laughable, but completely consistent with your other unsubstantiated opinions. Regardless, a person with a past of mental health issues is not automatically discredited from having insights about themselves or other people. To imply otherwise is merely a rhetorical tactic called the ad hominem attack -- attacking the person rather than his or her argument. Someone who would do that usually lacks enough substance in their argument to make a solid case, which is the problem that you clearly have (as is outlined above).
[–]Qlue- -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
All I see is a bunch of pseudo intellectual insults. Continue learning how to seduce women, whatever that means, maybe you can DHV your way into their pants. You've clearly missed the point.
For someone who claims to be so rational, isn't it ironic you're following a theory that has no scientific studies or backing? I mean you're reading pick up guides aren't you?
This is an example of how even the most "rational" of people can be the weakest minded.. You, of all people, are buying into the bullshit of the pick up community.
[–]sedditdee 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Qlue- wrote: All I see is a bunch of pseudo intellectual insults.
In that case, "all I see from you is a bunch of anti-intellectual insults."
That's a childish, stupid game that you're playing, and it leads nowhere.
Seriously, dude, read before writing. Otherwise there's no point in wasting the time pretending to have an intelligent conversation. No wonder you feel insulted -- you're not thinking at all. I believe the technical jargon for that is "trolling".
[–]Lead ModeratorThrowawayPUA 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
There really is no game where you can "change her mind".
Of course not. You can't change her mind, so you change her mood. This creates attraction. Do you know nothing about seduction?
Pick up theory is bullshit
Yeah, for the people that don't need pickup because they are naturals, it's bullshit. For those guys who never learned social skills, this is how the learn it and get better with women.
Your interpretation of PUA is, at the very least, idiosyncratic. This is not a system you can teach to guys and expect them to have any success at all.
[–]Qlue- -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
There is no "system" to being an adult who naturally is attracted to women, men have been doing this for millions of years without any seduction techniques. The need of a system is perpetuated bullshit. The Game was created by three people (Mystery, Style, and Tyler) who have mental disorders, as the book itself states Mystery's mental hospital visits, Tyler's OCD behaviours, and Neil's extreme narcissism. All three guys admitted to having shitty childhoods, what they needed was therapy, not pick up techniques. Therawness.com writes an amazing article about this.
All you really need is the ability to express your desires, this is what social skills are. This is what escalation is. The change her mood theory is bullshit, there is no one who has a 100% success rate or even a 51% success rate, there is no "system" that will prevent rejection. Guess what, you can't change her mood, you're not responsible for other people's emotions, and thinking you are will only destroy your self-esteem, creates anxieties and possibly other disorders in the long run. There is no "influencing" others. All there is expressing your desires, some people will reciprocate, some will not.
PS> I'm not a natural, but my results quadrupled once I dropped the PUA bullshit and started focusing on girls who DO like me, rather than girls who DON'T, and no longer tried to "change their moods" or influence them in any way. I started as a 26 y/o virgin.
[–]Lead ModeratorThrowawayPUA 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, I hear these sorts of anti-Game whines with some regularity. It is always the same:
[–]Qlue- 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I'm not selling anything, I don't have a blog, and I have nothing to gain. My purpose is to save people from wasting time, and most importantly keeping their mental sanity in check by not allowing poor ideologies such as PUA regulate their self-esteem. I only wish someone did the same for me, and if they did, that I actually listened.
Anyway, it's clear you have nothing logical to say.
[–]Lead ModeratorThrowawayPUA 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Your criticism is noted, and disproved by the hundreds of guys learning the things you say don't work and reporting it changed their lives for the better.
I think we've given you more consideration than you deserved.
Nothing was disproved because you can't prove whether a girl slept with you because you convinced her or because she wanted to sleep with you simply because you approached and touched her, or she was already available and if it wasn't going to be you it would have been someone else.
What's changing their lives is the fact that they are willing to face rejection, not that they are changing someone's mood.
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