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White Ribbon Australia attacks Erin Pizzey

AntiFeminismAU

July 20, 2016
31 upvotes
/r/MensRights
http://www.antifeminismaustralia.com/news/white-ribbon-australia-attacks-erin-pizzey/
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Post Information
Title White Ribbon Australia attacks Erin Pizzey
Author

AntiFeminismAU

Upvotes 31
Comments 53
Date July 20, 2016 11:44 AM UTC
(10 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/4tqqu2/white_ribbon_australia_attacks_erin_pizzey/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/white-ribbon-australia-attacks-erin-pizzey.945217
https://theredarchive.com/post/945217
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Comments

[–]Karissa36 9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (51 children) | Copy Link

This site is what white ribbon should be, helping victims of domestic violence regardless of their gender.

White Ribbon Australia have filed a complaint with the World Wide Intellectual Property Organisation (WIPO) over ownership of the domain. They want to take the site whiteribbon.org from Erin Pizzey. According to what they have put on their public record, the driving force behind their records is partially ideological.

This is complete and total bullshit and there's not a snowball's chance in hell of Erin Pizzey or anyone else winning this lawsuit. I can't just open a McDonald's because I think they should also serve tacos. White Ribbon, like any other charity, is entitled to choose what their mission is. Trademark law is a very real thing and companies and organizations spend tons of money to advertise their name.

Paul Elam could have chosen another name for his charity if he was actually interested in helping abused men. Choosing White Ribbon was just a blatant attempt to divert funds from the other organization by creating confusion. Just another sleazy money grab by "it all goes in my pocket and I don't have to account for the funds to anyone" Paul Elam.

Also, if Elam's White Ribbon had been even remotely successful at collecting money, they wouldn't need to solicit crowd funding to pay an attorney. So now he wants people to give money to defend an apparently completely unsuccessful fraudulent "charity". With any funds left over going to some unnamed unknown other "charity". Yeah, right. Count on it, those funds will also end up in his pocket.

It's time for MRA's to stop falling for this shit. This is just another money grab by Elam after falsely setting himself and/or his organization up to look like a victim. Know what is NOT on the site whiteribbon.org, still hosted by AVFM? Any reference at all to annual accountings of funds collected and what they have been spent on. It's just another sleazy attempted money grab by Paul Elam...

[–]Sasha_ 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link

I find the White Ribbon Campaign utterly abhorrent on two primary grounds:

  1. It's focus solely on female victim/male perpetrator domestic violence ignores the very significant number of male victims and places women as passive, dis-empowered victims. This is a shocking betrayal of male victims, and a horribly patronising view of women.

  2. It's adoption of the White Ribbon symbol seems reminiscent of the White Feather campaign of WW1. I don't care if that sounds far-ditched, it's just the first thing that pops into my head. The site of the White Ribbon being used on military plans etc. simply seems to reinforce the 'shaming' ethos of their approach.

It's as though the two work in a symbiotic pairing: here's a White Feather - you're a coward if you won't fight for me; here's a White Ribbon - you're a coward if you fight me.

It's a sickening game of manipulation, shaming and outright bullying.

[–]Karissa36 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link

You don't have to support their charity if you don't choose to. That's no reason to try to illegally steal their trade marked name.

It's focus solely on female victim/male perpetrator domestic violence ignores the very significant number of male victims and places women as passive, dis-empowered victims. This is a shocking betrayal of male victims, and a horribly patronising view of women.

I don't see why their view of female victims as passive and dis-empowered is any different from your view of male victims. Don't all these victims need help? Why is it any more patronizing for the women than it is for the men?

World War One ended in 1918. That was almost 100 years ago. Seriously, no gives a shit anymore. If every single charity had to avoid any possible random association with any other event in history, we wouldn't have any charities.

[–]Sasha_ 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

  1. "their trade marked name."

I don't believe it will be a trade-mark. It could be, but I'd be very surprised indeed. In fact I don't think they'd have a case at all. It's not 'unique' enough. It may well be a business or charity name, but if they're not 'passing off' then there's really no case, especially if they're not doing it for profit.

  1. "Why is it any more patronizing for the women than it is for the men?"

Interesting question. A thief is a nasty man who steels your car. A distingueshed man is a banker who creates a sub-prime bubble that robs you off your house. Stopping a child from going to school is a crime; stopping a child from seeing her father isn't.

A man abused by his wife is a weak joke. A symbol of amusement, 'henpecked'. A woman is a pitiful victim. We wouldn't approach domestic violence in this way in a healthy society; we'd campaign against all abuse, equally, and without shaming anyone.

Think about it this way: "real men don't hit women" or "boys shouldn't hit girls" both sound familiar.

But what do "real women" do? I can't even finish the sentance "Real women..." If someone did an advert saying it there'd be a storm of protest that it was an attempt to 'shame' women.

All these campaigns focus on women's rights and mens responsibilities. Men shouldn't hit women, shouldn't spread their legs on trains, should move-over in top jobs so women can have them etc.

Look at this White Ribbon Campaign. It doesn't run helplines, it doesn't fund research - all it does is campaign to publicise and promote the idea that we need to change mens behaviour. And that's what every campaign is about - getting men to do stuff for women. Hell, even the UN's campaign is called HeForShe!

The reason the stereotypes of domestic violence - the drunk beating his wife in front of the kids, the judge asking the jury to consider how the victim was dreased etc. these are vivid because they are so repelent not because they are common. In fact, domestic violence has fallen dramatically for years.

And your point about the White Feather of WW1 IS the point; that it's barely known about. If that had been a campaign targeting women today we'd have statues to the victims and postage stamps.

ALL domestic violence is wrong, and women can be just as manipulative, nasty and violent as men.

[–]Karissa36 -4 points-3 points-2 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

I don't believe it will be a trade-mark. It could be, but I'd be very surprised indeed. In fact I don't think they'd have a case at all. It's not 'unique' enough.

Do you have any idea how many people there are with the last name McDonald's in the U.S.? Good luck trying to open up your own restaurant with that name. Seriously, good luck. /sarcasm. You will be sued and lose in a flash. White Ribbon has established their name in about six countries. There's not a snowball's chance in hell of winning this lawsuit.

A man abused by his wife is a weak joke. A symbol of amusement, 'henpecked'. A woman is a pitiful victim. We wouldn't approach domestic violence in this way in a healthy society; we'd campaign against all abuse, equally, and without shaming anyone.

Maybe so, but once again, White Ribbon is entitled to determine their own mission. They don't have to run a charity for everyone that you want. You are free to start and run your own charity and no one would tell you that you have to include women. What you can't do is try to high jack some other charity's name and feed off all their investment in advertising and campaigning. Nope, you have to start from scratch, just like they did.

But what do "real women" do? I can't even finish the sentance "Real women..." If someone did an advert saying it there'd be a storm of protest that it was an attempt to 'shame' women.

Oh, dude, get a clue. There are about a million trillion restrictions on "real women". I can't even go out in public without shaving my legs. Maybe you can't run an advert campaign on it, but it is real nonetheless.

And your point about the White Feather of WW1 IS the point; that it's barely known about. If that had been a campaign targeting women today we'd have statues to the victims and postage stamps.

Oh, yeah? Exactly how many statues and postage stamps dedicated to women have you seen lately? Are you under the impression that this is because women had it so great 100 years ago? That women 100 years had equal rights under the law, access to birth control, the ability to determine their own destinies? Nope, think again.

[–]Sasha_ 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Do you have any idea how many people there are with the last name McDonald's in the U.S.? Good luck trying to open up your own restaurant with that name. Seriously, good luck. /sarcasm. You will be sued and lose in a flash. White Ribbon has established their name in about six countries. There's not a snowball's chance in hell of winning this lawsuit.

No. McDonalds is a trademark/tradename - that's entirely different. I'm afraid I genuinely do not believe there's a case here. IF Erin Pizzey was 'passing off' to extort money from contributors then it would be very different, but I can't see a case here at all.

Maybe so, but once again, White Ribbon is entitled to determine their own mission. They don't have to run a charity for everyone that you want. You are free to start and run your own charity and no one would tell you that you have to include women. What you can't do is try to high jack some other charity's name and feed off all their investment in advertising and campaigning. Nope, you have to start from scratch, just like they did.

This doesn't stop legitimate criticism. The majority of street robbery in the UK is commuted by Black and Asian youths. The majority of child sex offenders are Asian. I think there'd be an outcry if there was a campaign "Stop Blacks Mugging" or "Pakis: Stop Rapping Girls".

Oh, dude, get a clue. There are about a million trillion restrictions on "real women". I can't even go out in public without shaving my legs. Maybe you can't run an advert campaign on it, but it is real nonetheless.

Shave your legs or don't - entirely up to you. Fathers are portrayed as clueless fools or 'Deadbeat Dads' or assumed to be abusers. Men account for 94% of those killed or seriously injured at work, but all feminists obsess about is the tinny-percentage at the 'top'. You never see a feminist campaign to get women into bricklaying ("Yuck, that looks like really hard work, no thanks!") but a seat on the board of Google? ("Yes please!"). Feminists, and women generally, simply don't see the tough, stressfull and demanding side of mens roles.

How some women look at a world in which men die four years younger than them and still think they're 'oppressed' is a complete fucking mystery to me and most normal people. It's maybe why 90% of sensible women aren't feminists.

There are NO legal or social restrictions on women in the West, and a great many privileges.

Oh, yeah? Exactly how many statues and postage stamps dedicated to women have you seen lately? Are you under the impression that this is because women had it so great 100 years ago? That women 100 years had equal rights under the law, access to birth control, the ability to determine their own destinies? Nope, think again.

100 years ago women were writing books, rulling the British Empire, performing to sell-out theatres, working in factories etc. etc. they did have the burden of childbirth, until two men invented the Pill in the 1960s. Men also invented the tampon, developed HRT and safe Cesarian surgery. Don't get me started on antibiotics and the discovery of Penicillin. No wonder there's a few statues of us around.

In fact, can you name on statue in the world built by a woman? There are two statues dedicated to women in war in the UK: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_to_the_Women_of_World_War_II And http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-21401792

...both designed and built by men.

I mean, please don't take this as being overly-nasty here, but women can't even build their own statues to themselves. And every feminist campaign I can think of is directed at shaming and cojoling men into doing more.

Oh, yeah? Exactly how many statues and postage stamps dedicated to women have you seen lately? Are you under the impression that this is because women had it so great 100 years ago?

Here in the UK a woman is on every single postage stamp and banknote. In fact, she's on the stamps and banknotes of 35 countries. God Bless The Queen eh? Another woman is the first state you see sailing into New York harbour and yet another is on the top of our highest court.

Of course, both these women - Liberty and Justice - are fictional.

Feminism's a really strange ideology. Like 'HeForShe' or White Ribbon - it's campaigns are designed to get the group in society that dies younger, is most of the homeless, is most likely to be victims of crime, pays most tax etc. to do even more for women - the group that by almost every measure is priveleged.

[–]Karissa36 -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

No. McDonalds is a trademark/tradename - that's entirely different.

McDonald is a family name. It didn't just come from no where. There are literally hundreds of thousands, and possibly millions, of people in the U.S. with the last name McDonald. It's not unique, but they better not plan on opening restaurants. Someone got there first.

IF Erin Pizzey was 'passing off' to extort money from contributors then it would be very different, but I can't see a case here at all.

Really? You don't think Elam, who started it, could come up with any other name than White Ribbon? Why did he choose that name? Especially since he was already well aware of the very well publicized White Ribbon organization? You think that was just random chance? That he wasn't trying to high jack their advertising and their publicity? That he wasn't trying to deceive potential contributors? Seriously? No one in their right mind is going to believe that.

No one in their right mind is going to believe that Erin Pizzey, one of the original authors about domestic abuse, was not aware of the White Ribbon organization. Even if she was clueless, that changes nothing. White Ribbon is entitled to have no one dilute their brand. Especially since it is such a stupid website with practically no content over the past two years. It's a naked money grab, hoping to deceive contributors.

This doesn't stop legitimate criticism.

No, it doesn't. That still doesn't give anyone a right to steal their brand.

Men account for 94% of those killed or seriously injured at work.

Sure. That's still a very very small number compared to the number of women who are seriously injured or killed every year by men. Go ahead, look it up.

How some women look at a world in which men die four years younger than them and still think they're 'oppressed' is a complete fucking mystery to me and most normal people.

Not really. It's genetics. Men die younger than women throughout the ages and throughout the animal kingdom. Excuse the fuck out of me if I can't fix your DNA.

I really couldn't care less about statues and postage stamps. Have better things to do.

[–]Sasha_ 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm quite happy to continue this discussion - just traveling so can't respond in detail to all your points. Here's a few thoughts though...

Sure. That's still a very very small number compared to the number of women who are seriously injured or killed every year by men. Go ahead, look it up.

Nope. Nowhere even remotely near. 1,244 men and 12 women were killed or seriously injured at work last year in the UK.

There were 67 women and 22 men killed by their partners.

77 women were killed by 'falls', 'falls from height' and 'slips and spills'.

In other words, a woman is far more likely to be killed by a ladder than by a man.

Men in Australia are beginning to see there like-expentancy equal woman (yaa!) so there's nothing biological about it.

[–]Rapish 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I can't even go out in public without shaving my legs.

I think you are mentally ill. Get some help.

[–]actingverystrangely 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I have noted seven 'Ds' of feminists :

  • delusion

  • distortion

  • deceit

  • denial

  • dissembling

  • dual standards

  • deception

I am not sure that these terms are mutually exclusive, and I could add D for dictionary, for when feminists are challenged about their hatred of men.

This exchange demonstrates the futility of trying to reason with the wilfully ignorant.

D for desperate?

[–]Karissa36 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Low effort and low value comment.

[–]Driversuz -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Keep trying, you poor thing. And thank you for giving all of these people the opportunity to publicly (and completely) discredit your arguments.

[–]Karissa36 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Hey, thanks for dropping by Suz. It must have been something special that made you break your 8 month streak of not commenting or posting on reddit, and leave the echo chamber over at A Voice for Men, just to come to this thread and attack me.

Did somebody call you for help? LOL.

[–]MenandBoysareGood 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

White Ribbon is entitled to determine their own mission. They don't have to run a charity for everyone that you want. You are free to start and run your own charity and no one would tell you that you have to include women. What you can't do is try to high jack some other charity's name and feed off all their investment in advertising and campaigning. Nope, you have to start from scratch, just like they did.

White Ribbon is about demonizing men and only men. They are also influential to ensure that any (and all) resources going to domestic violence efforts are funneled into "women-only" programs. This is despite the overwhelming evidence that women are just as (or in some cases even more) violent as men.

Here are my sources:

http://web.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

and,

here is one recent study from Canada http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2016001/article/14303/01-eng.htm

....that find men are just as likely as women to suffer domestic violence. It's interesting because when you look at the crime statistics it shows women are most often the victims of domestic violence. But that is because Canada has (like the US) adopted the Duluth Model of DV where men (and ONLY men) can be villains and women (and ONLY women can be victims). As a result a police unit responding to a DV situation where a man called the police - will end up being hauled away and changed with DV! Most states in the US are also like that...and it helps to skew the "official" results. Is it any wonder why men are terrified to reach out to law enforcement or anyone for that matter?

I'm just perplex how people like you and others are more interested in derailing the issue around DV perpetrated against men by women rather than joining the discussion to help in a good cause.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

They both use public shaming to convince men to support a group against their best interest. That's not random, 7-4=3=Half Life 3 nonsense. It's an obvious comparison. I'm not aware of breast cancer research groups, foreign aid groups, or disaster relief funds a) being so ideologically biased and b) resorting to public shaming tactics to solicit funding.

[–]Karissa36 -5 points-4 points-3 points 10 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

Bullshit. Like it or not, when it comes to only serious physical injuries and death, men do commit the most domestic abuse. By far. There is no credible study in the world that doesn't show that. I fail to see how opposing this is "not in men's best interest". Sometimes public shaming is warranted. They are not targeting every man that exists. In case you haven't noticed, their whole entire deal is that they are composed of MEN against domestic abuse.

White Ribbon is the largest effort in the world of men working to end violence against women. In over sixty countries, campaigns are led by both men and women, with a focus on educating men and boys.

The white ribbon is a symbol of a man’s pledge to never commit, condone, or remain silent about violence against women.

WRC is a non-profit organization focused on challenging men to speak out; educating young people through direct youth engagement; raising public awareness about gender-based violence; working in partnership with women’s organizations; and supporting campaigns around the globe to create a future with no violence against women.

So what exactly is it that you have a problem with? That these MEN don't choose to instead devote their efforts to the significantly lesser problem of violent physical injuries and death that men suffer from domestic abuse? Well, you can do that yourself. People are entitled to choose their own charities. That's no reason at all to illegally steal another organization's trademark.

It's definitely no reason to start soliciting funds for a completely hopeless lawsuit to defend an alleged "charity", (with zero financial accountability), that doesn't do jack shit except run an extremely lackluster website that hasn't even been active for more than a couple days in the last year. That apparently makes no money and does nothing but circle jerk.

This is the kind of crap that makes MRA's look bad.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

You are wrong about the proportion of men and women who commit intimate partner violence, or at best the research is not complete. Martin S. Feibert has compiled a bibliography of over 300 sources on domestic violence. Examining the resource shows several studies that show higher rates of severe violence from women as well as higher mortality for men.

The resource also shows a consistent pattern of women being more aggressive in relationships and being a significantly larger percentage of sole aggressors. Supporting an organization that puts the blame of domestic violence solely on the shoulders of men despite the evidence is not in the interest of men, and in fact is not in the interest of domestic violence victims of either sex.

There is a difference between advocating to help female victims and spreading outright lies about "gender-based violence." Intimate partner violence is not gender-based. It is an issue of family dysfunction. If men are consistently painted as perpetrators, and women as victims, then we will, and already do, see a demonization of men and a resulting dearth of services for male victims and female abusers. That is what White Ribbon does in it's public statements and insinuations. Take these quotes from whiteribbon.ca:

White Ribbon is the world’s largest movement of men and boys working to end violence against women and girls, promote gender equity, healthy relationships and a new vision of masculinity...Our vision is for a masculinity that embodies the best qualities of being human. ...White Ribbon is helping create tools, strategies and models that challenge negative, outdated concepts of manhood...White Ribbon positively engages men, young men and boys through relevant educational programming that challenges language and behaviours, as well as harmful ideas of manhood that lead to violence against women."

They make it clear that they are not just an organization that wants men to help women. That would be fine. They are a group that views men as fundamentally flawed who are predisposed to be violent against women. That men and masculinity are in need of fixing.

Ignoring reciprocal violence and the high percentage of sole perpetrator violence from women does not serve to end intimate partner violence. It keeps female abusers from recognizing their abuse and legitimizes their abuse by placing the blame solely on men. If women are not held responsible, then the abuse will continue with the next partner and the next. And if children are involved, then will be treated to the experience of witnessing this recurring abuse which is extremely harmful to their development.

Criticizing Paul Elam, whiteribbon.org, and Erin Pizzey is one thing and there are valid criticisms to be heard. But to defend White Ribbon as an organization not driven by a biased, harmful philosophy is wrong.

[–]Karissa36 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Oh, bullshit. This is one of the weakest points of the MRA movement. Claiming that men are seriously victimized just as much as women from domestic violence. It is impossibly stupid and should be abandoned. Just take a look at the FBI statistics for which sex ends up most often seriously injured or dead from intimate partner violence. It's not rocket science.

Cobbling together a bunch of random studies that include alleged emotional abuse or controlling behavior or acts that don't lead to serious injuries or death, along with the ones that do, as an equal form of domestic abuse is intellectually dishonest and just plain stupid. Obviously, there are some types of domestic abuse that are more important to stop.

There is nothing wrong with White Ribbon choosing their own mission. They have no duty to save the world. There is nothing stopping MRA's from setting up their own programs to protect men. Bitching about White Ribbon is stupid. Make your own program if you care to. Don't expect to high jack White Ribbon. They owe no duty to you.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

So do you agree or disagree that White Ribbon specifically says that men and masculinity are the source of domestic violence?

[–]Karissa36 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I haven't seen anything where White Ribbon say that ONLY men commit domestic violence. Have you?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's not what I asked you. I asked if you agree that WR says men and masculinity are the source of domestic violence.

[–]Driversuz -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You know who ends up "most injured?" The children, who learn from their mothers that hitting loved ones is OK. WRA doesn't mind that though, does it? It ensures another generation of victims on whose backs WRA can beg for m ore funding.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]Karissa36 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Think Ray Rice.

Which one of them ended up unconscious on the floor and which one of them was dragging the other out of the elevator? Like seriously, you expect people to care as much about Ray Rice being domestically abused? No, these two things are not equal. No one should be hitting anyone, but these two things are not equal.

[–]wisty 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Like seriously, you expect people to care as much about Ray Rice being domestically abused?

If you think it's OK for women to hit men, then you have to accept the consequence that a few will end up unconscious on the floor.

Are you OK with that?

(Yes, I'm being a prick here)

Given the effort that goes into training men (since they're little kids) to not hit women, I think it's not going to be the most bang for your buck to double down on it. I really think you'd do more to reduce violence against women by telling women not to hit men.

I'm also not sure that you understand the difference between violence and abuse. Obviously Ray wasn't in grave physical danger. Similarly, a guy who slaps his wife around but doesn't leave a mark isn't being particularly violent, but is being abusive. Maybe it's not something "you expect people to care as much about", but it's not OK.

[–]Karissa36 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

The most bang for the buck is reducing serious injuries and death from domestic abuse. It makes the most sense to focus on the people who are most likely to do that.

Given the effort that goes into training men (since they're little kids) to not hit women, I think it's not going to be the most bang for your buck to double down on it.

Those efforts have not been working well enough. Too many men are slipping through the cracks. More training seems in order.

As I said before, no one of any sex should be hitting anyone. However, claiming that women are responsible for ending up seriously injured or dead in great numbers is not the right answer.

[–]wisty 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

If you punch someone, and they punch you back, who was responsible for it? I mean, maybe they should have had far better self control than you, but you have to accept some responsibility.

It's a lot easier to teach people not to strike the first blow than to teach them not to defend themselves.

[–]Driversuz -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

There is no credible study

Credible to whom? WRA employees whose cushy jobs depend on perpetuating bigoted lies? Are you one of them? Or are you singing your dame propaganda song for free? Either way, it's no longer working.

[–]Karissa36 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Are you one of them?

Proving yet again that we can always count on the staff of AVfM to have a paranoia streak a mile wide.

[–]tyrelrolly 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Please go to an Anzac Day parade in Australia and say that no one gives a shit about World War One anymore. I think you will be shocked that your broad generalizations about no one giving a shit may be wrong.

[–]Revoran 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

White Ribbon, like any other charity, is entitled to choose what their mission is.

That doesn't mean we can't criticize them for their bullshit.

Agree apart from that.

[–]Karissa36 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This site is what white ribbon should be, helping victims of domestic violence regardless of their gender.

It is very clear that the Elam/Pizzey site hasn't done anything but circle jerk and re-post old articles for the entire past two years. Also, the site has done damn little of even that. Elam and Pizzey should have no trouble at all moving this little content to a site with a different name. Of course, that is not as profitable as crowd sourcing donations, now is it?

http://whiteribbon.org/

[–]Karissa36 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

http://www.whiteribbon.org.au/uploads/media/093-WR_Annual_Report_2014-15_vPrint2.pdf

Note that the real White Ribbon has annual public reports on all funds collected and how they are spent. Elam's White Ribbon? Crickets.

[–]actingverystrangely 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

White Ribbon in Australia is a bigoted and misandristic front organisation for channelling millions of dollars of taxpayers money to metropolitan middle class tertiary educated white women.

No one believes that the Australian front organisation has any purpose other than tilting at the patriarchy windmill and spreading misandry. You saw the Bettina Arndt article, and more and more people are seeing through the Orwellian narrative that "ovaries good, testes bad" .

I respect your right to challenge Elam, but let's not pretend that the Australian white ribbon organisation is something that it isn't.

[–]mhra1 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Uh, maybe that is because Pizzey's (not Elam's) white ribbon does not collect any money.

Just saying.

[–]Driversuz 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

By all means, do encourage people to look closely at how little of WRA's money goes to actual victims of DV, and how much goes to staff salaries and perks.

[–]Rapish -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Stop shilling for white ribbon.

[–]Karissa36 -3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Low effort and low value comment.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]Karissa36 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

http://fundanything.com/en/campaigns/whiteribbon-org-legal-defense-campaign

Note that the requested donations are going straight to A Voice for Men instead of to Erin Pizzey.

Well, he's said that he'll publish full accounts.

If so, that will be the first time he ever did. Except why is Paul Elam collecting the money at all? Why is Paul Elam in charge of distributing it? Surely they knew how to set up a fundraiser that would go straight to Erin Pizzey and/or her lawyer.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]Karissa36 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Well, Paul's not collecting the money personally, his organisation is...

Seriously? You expect anybody who knows anything at all about AVfM to think that Paul won't have access to this money?

Erin said in the FundAnything video that she is "very computer illiterate", which is consistent with her hosting her site with AVfM. She probably doesn't have the IT wherewithal (or equipment) to make a video and start a FundAnything campaign.

According to FundAnything website:

Anyone can start raising money on FundAnything in about 15 minutes. No technical or programming skills of any kind are required. You’ll get everything you need to create, promote and track a highly polished and impressive fundraising campaign. - See more at: https://fundanything.com/en/how#features

Regardless, the fact that Elam helped her doesn't mean that Elam has to be the one to collect the money. It could easily have been directed to Erin or to her attorney.

Were Erin to accept donations in her personal capacity, she'd be obliged to report and pay income tax on it unless she is a sole trader (because individuals can't reduce their taxable income by deductible expenses in the way that a business can; leastways, not in the UK). Since AVfM Education LLC is a company, it already has the legal prerequisites to hold money in trust on her behalf, paying out expenses as promised in the fund raiser (and, I expect, the mechanisms to generate a report of donations and expenses).

https://www.gov.uk/income-tax/overview

Income from a trust is taxable to an individual in the U.K. The trust paying Erin's lawyer fees directly does not make it any less taxable.

In addition to income tax, FundAnything and PayPal fees, she'd lose yet more of the donations in currency exchange fees (US$ to GB£).

She is going to have to pay income tax anyway. She is going to have FundAnything and PayPal fees deducted from donations anyway, unless you expect us to believe that Elam is just going to eat those costs.

https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/cross-border-and-conversion-fees#currencyconversion

Currency conversion on paypal for what will be a fully funded paypal balance is only 0.5 percent. I doubt Elam can do it cheaper. In addition, don't you expect to have donors from the UK? In that case there will be currency exchange fees for Elam to get the money.

I'd also add that these donations are held in trust, therefore they are neither Paul's nor the LLC's money to spend, so Paul is not "in charge of spending it".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_trust_law

I seriously doubt Elam has the vaguest idea how to properly set up a trust. Especially for an adult living in the U.K. By the way, who is going to be the trustee in charge of deciding how these alleged trust funds will be distributed? Oh right, that will be Elam. There is no point at all in going to all this trouble and expense of properly setting up a trust instead of just sending donations directly to Erin Pizzey.

if Paul can support Erin in something he thinks is worthwhile, why ever would Erin not accept that help?

That still doesn't explain why Elam has to be the one to collect the money.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Karissa36 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

They'll pay CGT and whatever the equivalent of income tax is on dividends, rents and royalties etc, but the only time the beneficiaries of the trust ever pay tax is when they receive beneficial income from the trust.

I don't think you understand taxes. Payment of legal fees is beneficial income to Erin Pizzey and is taxable. I can't avoid taxes by having a trust pay my mortgage directly. Same deal with paying legal fees. It's still income.

I think you missed my point. Most legal entities can deduct business expenses (including legal fees) from revenues and only net profit is taxable.

The business can only deduct business related expenses. Paul's LLC can't take a deduction for paying Erin Pizzey's legal fees! It's not a business related expense. (I'm beginning to see why Elam doesn't want financial transparency.)

I said that the money is being held in trust by Paul's LLC, presumably in much the way that lawyers and accountants hold client funds in trust — and they're definitely not legal trusts of the type you're talking about.

Correct, they are not. They also don't shield anyone from taxes.

men do commit the most domestic abuse. By far. There is no credible study in the world that doesn't show that.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/4tqqu2/white_ribbon_australia_attacks_erin_pizzey/d5k6la9

Yeah, how about you give the ACTUAL QUOTE IN CONTEXT, SLEAZEBALL?

Like it or not, when it comes to only serious physical injuries and death, men do commit the most domestic abuse. By far. There is no credible study in the world that doesn't show that. I fail to see how opposing this is "not in men's best interest".

Note the "only serious physical injuries and death" part that you so very conveniently chose to leave out.

Well, now we all know how trustworthy you are.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]Karissa36 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm done responding to you. You don't understand the tax law, or the other law and you deliberately misquoted me.

Note the "only serious physical injuries and death" part that you so very conveniently chose to leave out.

As supported by every U.S. crime statistic, men commit this in intimate partner violence at a much higher incidence than women.

You insist that we should only rely on surveys instead.

You know why just asking people if they have suffered serious injuries or death as a result of intimate partner violence won't work?

Dead people don't answer surveys.

[–]PeterWrightMGTOW -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This article..... nice try by a WRA shill, Lol.

[–]PeterWrightMGTOW -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This article..... nice try by a WRA shill, Lol.

[–]BryanScandrett 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Karrisa36 is obvs a WRA shill spreading lies. Erin does her work for free. Every cent of this is for lawyers, forced on by this disgusting bullying by wra parasites trying to hurt an old woman in a wheel chair and a legend. Classic tactics of a abuser pretending to be the abused. Any overs will go to a DV shelter, unlike wra who are the money grabbers here, like Our Watch, to the tune of millions every year. Paul isn't playing the victim, but the white knight is you had a clue about anything. And in this case, good on him. The reason the charity is unnamed is finding one that will service men is a trick. I know this as I've seen him asking people if they know any. May have to start one. Every dollar wra gets SHOULD be diverted, to DV victims. Out of the pockets of the DV industrial cabal. "Also, if Elam's White Ribbon had been even remotely successful at collecting money, they wouldn't need to solicit crowd funding to pay an attorney." Which lie are you going to tell? You can't seem to keep track of them in the one post. Either Paul is raking in the dollars or he isn't. Keep swapping lies mid sentence, people might think you're just flinging mud in the hope some sticks. Your contempt for the intelligence of your audience is telling.

[–]Karissa36 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Every cent of this is for lawyers...

Not according to Paul Elam. In the video Paul Elam says that donations will be used for legal expenses and "overhead".

"Overhead" is a weasel word. Especially when spoken by Paul Elam.

http://fundanything.com/en/campaigns/whiteribbon-org-legal-defense-campaign

Note that the requested donations are going straight to A Voice for Men instead of to Erin Pizzey.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]Karissa36 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Sure they do. However, Elam hasn't promised that's the only "overhead" that will be deducted from donations.

[–]Karissa36 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

It's nice you were able to spare some time from moderating AVfMHotLinks on reddit to drop by and comment. Who exactly is the shill here?

Edit: took out link to the sub

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