~ archived since 2018 ~

Dear Male Sexual Assault Survivors!

[deleted]

September 13, 2018

21 upvotes

/r/MensRights

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHYBmfwRj4c&t=1s

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Title	Dear Male Sexual Assault Survivors!
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	21
Comments	47
Date	September 13, 2018 12:27 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/9fd9zu/dear_male_sexual_assault_survivors/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/dear-male-sexual-assault-survivors.1185139 https://theredarchive.com/post/1185139

Comments

[–]Hadashi_blacksky 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[–]Michlynn75 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mackowatosc 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Michlynn75 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Michlynn75 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I will and do hold conversations with MRAs its MGTOWs I find to be the ridiculous ones lol.

And that's fine but understand you don't represent feminism as a whole.

But I too used to think that MRAs and MGTOWs were basically the same thing

It's extremely common in feminist circles to lump MRAs, incels, MGTOW, PUAs, red pill, any random guy being shitty, etc together.

Then they get super pissed if you don't make the proper distinction between second, third, fourth, etc wave feminists because they're totally different!

so I refused to talk to mras also until someone told me they actually are not the same.

Who told you that? Were they a feminist?

and it came from me having so many people tell me they were mgtows and tell me they hoped I was raped or beaten to death etc.

Yeah that seems pretty standard for how we're represented over there.

I think there are misconceptions on both sides

I don't think you can really equate the two.

At worst we're guilty of over generalizing but at least we're criticizing actual feminists and actual feminist policies.

Whereas on the other side they just flat out lie about us.

So we'll attack Duluth and feminism for supporting it and you can argue that you and some other feminists don't support it (maybe you don't).

Whereas feminists will just lie and say we all want to legalize rape.

and maybe we will never love each other but I really think we need to work on finding common ground and mutual respect to really make any change

What common ground do you think exists currently?

[–]Michlynn75 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Hadashi_blacksky 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago* (11 children) | Copy Link

OP, I want to bring up a response you posted on your Youtube Channel:

Feminism was started at a time where women couldn’t even vote or work outside the home once married ... how did you expect them to feel about men at this time

This was in response to a commentator who mentioned "The White Feather Campaign" and other areas where feminism failed men like The Duluth Model.

So in your opinion, feminism started because women didn't have the option to vote or work outside the home so therefore it justifies their actions, correct?

Unacceptable response, OP. Validating these feminists' actions.

Let me correct you on the vote thing: Men who didn't own property were excluded from voting. And those men whom were allowed to vote paid the price by signing their name to the draft.

Women avoided this responsibility. So mentioning the fact women could vote rings hollow now because men in war literally gave their lives for their vote and aren't around to reap its benefits anymore.

In general, it's not proper to use "Times were different" as justification for evident harms towards men that are still felt to this day.

That's why I don't support feminism 100% anymore. They turned their backs on me after sharing my story of bullying and abuse in the past as a young man because they believe what happens to women is worse and that my abuse doesn't cancel out my white male privilege. Pardon me for being empathetic but that's not something you say to a man in their vulnerable state sharing a personal story of woe that haunts him on his worst days, am I right?

No offense. It's gratifying to hear a feminist doing her best to support men's rights. Yet you need to be aware of feminism's share of damage it had done as well. And no amount of "Women couldn't vote!" is going to be acceptable an excuse anymore.

Edit: Okay, those who felt it necessary to downvote me to zero (perhaps YOU OP?), may I present this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESDFmj0NgzA

I'm not a Christian and aren't to enamored with religion in general but you didn't come off as the higher person in this video. These christian women had points yet your rebuttal is to roll your eyes and cringe. That's it.

The way you also acted, OP, in the commentary section here with your constant one word rebuttals like "LMAO" shows your true colors. Just like many feminists helping men, the minute some calls your movement into question, that's when it all goes out the window and your mask comes off.

Thanks but no thanks. I'd rather follow feminists like Christina Hoff Sommers and Cassie Jaye, whom are not afraid to take their movement to task and have more mature responses to critics.

[–]Michlynn75 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

And yes when random people who comment on every one of my videos leave ignorant comments no matter what I say then I respond with responses as such .

The thing is though, they're not ignorant.

Like those christian women you mocked in your video, they had legitimate issues with feminism. Instead of addressing each one, you dismissed them outright.

There's no other way to put this: When you advocate on behalf of a movement that has failed in critical areas where men are concerned, you're going to get people who have been affected by these failures. They're not misogynists nor ignorant whatsoever. They are human beings that bore the brunt of the invalidation society and the feminist movement have dealt them: Male victims of sexual abuse, Male victims of domestic violence, men falsely accused of rape, some of them have negative experiences with feminism reaching out to them. You don't toss their concerns aside and chalk it up to ignorance. You address their points as neutrally as possible and try to hear their side.

It goes with the territory.

This is why some feminists choose not to speak on male issues because we get attacked and then get a mind set of fuck it . I’m out here actually advocating for men and I get nothing but attacked.

Pointing out issues these hurt people have with feminism and specify areas where the movement has actually hurt them with cited evidence is not attacking you personally. That's the mistake you and other feminists have made: turned the personal political. Thus, a criticism of feminism is an attack on you as a person. This is something you need to separate if you want to come out the bigger person and convince skeptics of your intentions otherwise.

Ok sorry for trying to change the conversation and bring gendered male issues into feminism. You’re right I’m horrible .

Again, why are you taking this so personally? I pointed out the mistakes you made in your video mocking christian women for their opposition to feminism as well as the poor responses to commentators who are not trolls looking to rile you up but people expressing, clearly and concisely, their misgivings about the movement.

I've stated earlier it's honorable and admirable you're reaching out to male victims. But, like many feminists who have, if someone expresses how the feminist movement failed them and men in key areas and your response is to roll your eyes, go "LMAO", then that calls your genuineness into question.

That's how it is.

Here's a question for you? If a male victim happens to be christian and opposed to feminism because of his real, genuine and valid negative experiences, are you going to dismiss him as ignorant and unworthy of help?

Something to think about.

[–]Michlynn75 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Heres what you see, a few people on a video commenting looking like they were asking me questions. what you dont see unless you look through multiple videos... is most of these people I have actually tried to talk to. they will ask these questions on every video and then just try and twist anything I say. so yes I can see how someone coming in seeing someone ask me a question and me just going "LMAO" looks but its because I have tried with those accounts. when I actually try to hold conversation it becomes apparent that they just want to belittle me so I have given up and now I just makes remarks like lol, totally , yup etc when they comment.

I do not deny that the feminist movement has failed some men and that there are some bad apples in it that do not make it look good and that we need to work on it. That is what I am working to do. shut down people who put the movement in a bad place and bring the movement back to what it is meant to be.

Also I was raised very catholic. the woman who raised me was very religious. I have muslim family as well. so even tho I am atheist I do not agree with discriminating against people because of their religion. the video of the women I did not like how they tried to use religion to keep women in a certain place. I have seen anti feminist people bring up that it was the worst video when it comes to videos on not being a feminist. I would not deny a victim help because of his religion or because he didnt want to be a feminist. I talk to people all the time who do not consider themselves feminists.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I do not deny that the feminist movement has failed some men and that there are some bad apples in it that do not make it look good and that we need to work on it.

They aren't just bad apples, though, that you can just ignore.

The Duluth Model of Domestic Violence, one of the most toxic approaches to addressing the issue was founded by a feminist and unanimously supported by the feminist movement. Decades later, she denounced it because she realized the method was flawed. Noble effort but ultimately meaningless because the damage has been done and its going to take a long time to fix the mess it created. Many male victims of domestic violence as collateral damage and, even now, the method is still a point of reference for police in some US states.

N.O.W, one of the largest feminist organizations in North America opposed Shared Parenting. They claimed it would open the doors for children to be put in danger of abusive fathers. In reality, the law would make it so that both parents would have equal access to their children provided that one is found to be a detriment to their well-being with sufficient evidence. How convenient N.O.W. ignored this in favor of pushing this myth that fathers are only in it to get their abusive mits on their children while feminists lament about the lack of men raising future generations.

Mary K. Ross, a prominent feminist researcher, excluded male victims from official statistics because she believed it would be improper to label what they went through as "Rape".

These failures you can't put down to bad apples. They were feminists with powerful position, sway and influence. Able to get laws passed and methods enshrined into police procedure.

I'm glad you're working to shut down people who put the movement in the bad place. However, you have to understand the scope and extent of damages so as to never repeat history.

Insofar as your other points, I appreciate your clarification.

[–]MeTooSucks 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Here's what you see; validation from having X amount of internet followers. Maybe the slacktivism feels satisfying. Maybe you genuinely want to help other people and don't have more constructive opportunities to invest your time into. Whatever the case might be, the duluth model hardly represents a rare bad apple impacting some people here and there.

The duluth model is an education tool that is used to train both batterers and professionals about domestic violence. Men are uniquely bad because of the power they yield in society. Only men are batterers. Women are uniquely good. Women are always the victims of batterers. If a woman is violent, she must be so in self-defense. The duluth model impacts some people. Let's put that word some into qualitative terms:

Law enforcement must abide by mandated training that teaches officers that only men abuse, while women are only victims.
Licensed Clinical Social Workers earn their degree being taught that men abuse, while abusive women are behaving appropriately. Although some LCSWs carry the duluth power wheel as an education tool to help their clients, other LCSWs might carry multiple tools.
Batterers who are arrested likely face court-mandated intervention programs that teach them about the power wheel.
Abuse victims who are arrest also likely face court-mandated intervention programs that teach them how the mistreatment was all their fault.
Other clinicians like MDs, DOs, PAs, & FNPs are also trained in the power wheel. But these clinicians rely on evidence-based practice that suggest drug addiction, mental illness, and upbringing fosters abuse and not patriarchy.
Given that domestic violence is enshrined into these gendered terms, most professionals struggle to grapple with LBGTQ clients. The duluth model is adverse to gay men, women, non-binary, and transgendered people across the nation.

I see the same vignette applied in clinical practice. Each weekend you are apt to see men come into the ER with accident knife wounds that totally happened in the kitchen and not from a jilted lover if you know what I mean. You think the duluth model is an example of one bad apple.

The duluth model, as well as the policies and procedures promote arresting men by default, are enshrined into law. We have a multi-billion dollar public health policy. But you know better than the thousands upon thousands of men or LBGTQ abuse victims who are living through this experience right now. People cannot possibly be struggling with the matter and their mere presence exists as an attack against you. I, myself, was at a time homeless in part to not be arrested. Just some bad experiences are out there, opposed to a broken system.

No, you know better than several billion dollars worth of public health policy. Some random person on the internet with a few followers.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

So you're clearly trying to make yourself the victim here. That's not a good start if you want a discussion. No one here attacked you and understand every single man who discusses men's issues at length gets called horrible names by feminists at some point.

Also we get a ton of insincere feminists who come here and start talking about having a dialogue and cooperating but soon it becomes clear they really want to lecture us and have us support feminism while they don't change at all.

That's proselytizing, not cooperating.

I'm not saying you're doing this. But you started out pretty much the exact same way they all did. So that's why you aren't being greeted as a savior. We've been through this many many times before and gotten burnt every single one.

Perhaps you'll be the exception. But your sisters in feminism burnt a lot of bridges for you.

[–]Michlynn75 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (47 children) | Copy Link

[–]Michlynn75 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (46 children) | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (44 children) | Copy Link

[–]Michlynn75 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (43 children) | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (42 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] -7 points-6 points-5 points 7 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 8 points9 points10 points 7 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 7 years ago* (30 children) | Copy Link

This is completely false. Duluth declares men cannot be abused by women and that if they report abuse they should be jailed.

It says no such thing. Duluth does not say that. It says that men are inclined to beat women because of patriarchal dominance, but it does not say men cannot be battered. If you actually read the Duluth model, it has nothing to do with arrest but with what happens after. The overwhelming majority of the worst offenders in DV are men who beat women. Most male victims face nowhere near the same treatment as women unless they're battered by men.

You haven't read that article I sent you showing how Duluth is entirely justified, have you? DV is not symmetrical. Get used to it.

And these lies and attacks based on nothing clearly illustrate why we can't work with your side.

What's great about this, and this is something /u/Michlynn75 is going to have to realize, is that we don't care. We don't need your help. We think you're a bunch of misogynistic, entitled whiners who make up nonsense issues to derail feminism.

Society as a whole, even conservatives, think you're toxic. That's why even your conservative allies try their best to tippy toe around your worst aspects.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 7 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 7 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

It actually does say so. As it frames DV as it being only gender violence and something men do to women. Its also the model used by police in arresting men in DV cases.

Because it generally is. It does not specify men cannot be victims, but that their victimhood is tame compared to that of women and is generally done in way of self-defense.

Let me guess women are the ones with the real issues right?

Yep. :D Men are not victims. Get used to it.

In what world are male victims of DV are treated better?

In a world where studies are published on the subject by actual scholars rather than just a bunch of upper-middle-class white dudes on the Internet who're offended that their little STEM boys club is being opened to women.

And your post/reply is in good faith?

Yes actually. Mine actually coincides with facts rather than made-up nonsense meant to threaten protections for women.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It says no such thing.

It does. Educate yourself.

And it's particularly offensive when you consider most abuse is reciprocal and most unilateral abuse comes from women.

What's great about this, and this is something /u/Michlynn75 is going to have to realize, is that we don't care. We don't need your help. We think you're a bunch of misogynistic, entitled whiners who make up nonsense issues to derail feminism.

Any right back at you adjusted for being hateful of men and making up nonsense to derail efforts towards equality.

Main difference is we can prove our case and are willing to debate it. You hide in circle jerks and make things up.

Society as a whole, even conservatives, think you're toxic.

Didn't society as a whole dislike suffragettes?

But yes, social conservatives and feminists overlap quite a bit on supporting traditional gender roles for men and traditional privileges for women.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

When women use violence in an intimate relationship, the circumstances of that violence tend to differ from when men use violence. Men’s use of violence against women is learned and reinforced through many social, cultural and institutional experiences. Women’s use of violence does not have the same kind of societal support. Many women who do use violence against their male partners are being battered. Their violence is used primarily to respond to and resist the violence used against them. On the societal level, women’s violence against men has a trivial effect on men compared to the devastating effect of men’s violence against women.

https://www.theduluthmodel.org/what-is-the-duluth-model/frequently-asked-questions/

Women are the primary abusers:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

You just proved my point. That study doesn't say what you think it says. And the Duluth model is correct. As my study showed, most women lash out in protest or do so in a trivial way that doesn't affect men's standing in society.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/107780102237407

Your other comment is utter bullshit. I've shown to you through studies that, while women might commit abuse similarly, the worst and most traumatizing abuse is done almost exclusively by men.

But yes, social conservatives and feminists overlap quite a bit on supporting traditional gender roles for men and traditional privileges for women.

This is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard said. You literally live in la-la land if you believe this. Feminists are the biggest promoters against this.

I've had enough of you. Goodbye. Let's hope /u/Michlynn75 doesn't turn into another Cassie Jaye or Alex Godlewski.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

If you're interested in getting men involved, you should make sure that most of your work is about getting men to understand their oppressive behaviors and get them to change them.

Too much of the discussion about men in feminism has to do with discussing issues rather than getting men to understand women's oppression and their role in perpetrating it. Simply talking about issues men face does not deal with the fact women are the oppressed class and that men oppress them and makes feminism go nowhere.

Moreover, many men (even those here) oftentimes discuss men's issues from a MRA-sympathetic framework which views men's issues as being equal to those of women, rather than not as important and ubiquitously caused by women's issues. They oftentimes repeat MRA talking points as if they were true. This I feel stunts feminism as a whole.

/u/Michlynn75, see why we can't work with feminists? They deny men have any issues, attack them as oppressors, say the only thing for men to do is work on helping women, and completely dismiss any attempts to actually help men.

Tell me, what common ground can we find with this?

MRA: men have problems.

Feminist: no you don't, men are the problem.

What's halfway on that?

[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Curthurley 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

VAWA and Duluth are perfectly justified tools for analyzing DV. Male victims are not put upon. In fact, they are treated better.

Are you fucking out of your mind?!? Male victims treated better?

Yeah, I want you to go out there and tell every male victim automatically arrested, as per this method how they're treated with amples of support. If you call being directed to groups for BATTERERS or sitting in a jail cell "support".

I'm so amazed that you have the gall to claim an underclass of society have it better. Yes, male victims are a fucking underclass and treated as such.

/u/Michlynn75 stay away from this subreddit. The regulars will only bombard you with their usual half-dozen bullshit talking points and you won't get anywhere. While I appreciate your kindness and willingness to address men's issues, you must understand that the vast majority of the discussion is done in incredibly bad faith. Hit me with a PM if you want to know more.

Oh no, oh no, you are not the paragon of good faith at all through your first few sentences alone. Nobody in good faith would automatically believe, as gossaple, the bullshit you're spewing and supporting.

I'm just going to say it right now: You showing any ounce of support for stuff like The Duluth Model and you're shitting on every single male victim who has been put through the ringers because of it. So fuck off!

[–]feminist-arent-smart 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]mylestheskeptic 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link