IAmA: 7yr old 6'5" Chinese woman

little_red_ · 2016-04-20T16:48:49+00:00

Was shared this video at work today and I think it really brings up some interesting (and humorous) points about 'gender identity'! You can notice...

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It's really funny but regardless of where you stand on the subject, I think it's a broken analogy.

We have the technology to objectively identify someone's height (a ruler) lol. And their ethnic ancestry (DNA tests).

We have not yet identified hard and fast conclusions to explain the phenomenon of gender identity (not your birth sex, that's also objective) but of gender identity, same as we have not yet with sexual orientation. Again, this is absolutely irrespective of one's position on the matter -- science could yet prove that it's a mental disease, or it could prove it's a genetic condition. So I can appreciate the point the video is trying to make, and I definitely don't want to dump on the humour (because it was totally funny), but I wouldn't say it proves a point about anything.

I intentionally left out the age example because people can objectively "identify" with another age (autism or other conditions associated with developmental delays); but that is an entirely different discussion.

Overall I take the approach that if a 5'9", 30 year old white guy wants to identify as a 7 year old Chinese woman...if it's not bringing harm to anyone else than just do your crazy thang in your crazy corner and count me out of it.

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If a man wants to wear a dress, that's fine. If he looks like a man wearing in a dress, I'm literally not going to be able to interact with that person as though they are a natural female. I can do my best to be polite and cordial, but if I can detect visually (through presence, behavior, voice, etc) that they are not female - that's going to affect how I behave and think of them. Even if it's only on a subconscious level, or if I do notice but I'm doing my best to not let on that I'm aware.

That's where I get hung up, at least in part. I fully encourage people to do what makes them happy, but also realistic. Passing is very difficult for some people, even after fully transitioning and taking hormones, some people will still look very obviously not like the gender they are trying to present to the people around them.

At the same time, there are some people that are able to transition, or cross-dress with ease. They look, behave, and present as though they were born fully female or male (with all the relative genitalia etc). For most people within the trans community (from my limited understanding, because I am not overly familiar with it) most people have a desire to be able to blend/present/appear as a normal person that embodies the gender they identify with. They want to be able to walk down the street and simply be thought of as another person - without any questioning/confused looks.

I think that's a good goal, I also think it's not realistic for some, if not many trans-people.

With the sorority example I mentioned earlier (should an obvious male, not even attempting to pass as a female be allowed to join/audition for a sorority?) - the question can be altered to "should a sorority be charged with transphobia or discrimination if a man trying to pass as female (but, despite his best efforts, is still clearly male in presence/behavior etc) if they decide not to allow them into the sorority? Furthermore, what about athletics? Should men that transition to be women, take hormone treatments etc, be allowed to make a living and compete in athletics?

I believe men and women are different. There's a level of strength that most men have that easily surpasses the abilities of most women. There are exceptions, but there's a reason the standards men face on physical qualifications tests are harder and more demanding than the ones their female counter-parts face.

I'm fine with anyone that wants to walk down the street in a dress. What I'm not fine with is any expectation placed on other people to flat-out accept that person in the dress as normal/treat them as female (or male) if they are clearly not. People are free to do what they want, similarly, others are free to judge.

I haven't stated one way or the other concerning whether trans people should be allowed to use a specific restroom.

If the person looks/passes as female or male - then it won't matter what the law is either way, because those people look like the sex they are presenting in public.

[–]littleteafox0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

With the sorority example I mentioned earlier (should an obvious male, not even attempting to pass as a female be allowed to join/audition for a sorority?) - the question can be altered to "should a sorority be charged with transphobia or discrimination if a man trying to pass as female (but, despite his best efforts, is still clearly male in presence/behavior etc) if they decide not to allow them into the sorority?

I'd say no, because this doesn't sound like they're trans or identifying as that gender, they're just goofing off. Thus the sorority can't be charged with discrimination. However, sororities can make their own rules. If they clearly state that they will only accept women born with all the women parts and with female on their birth certificate, then why should the law be involved at all. There may be social consequences that they would have to be prepared to deal with but that's on them.

Furthermore, what about athletics? Should men that transition to be women, take hormone treatments etc, be allowed to make a living and compete in athletics?

Sure. Their body changes with hormones

A good deal of the size that is normally attributed to large or broad shoulders, arms and chest is actually contained in upper body muscle mass—not bones. Through the process of feminization much of the upper body bulk will disappear. Muscle mass will generally take longer to diminish (about 3 years) than the accompanying shift in fat distribution previously mentioned. As upper body mass is lost, a certain degree of looseness may be seen in the skin of the upper arms and shoulders. As is the case with normal weight loss in these areas, a period of one to two years may be necessary for the skin to adjust to the smaller frame." source

That is assuming that a trans woman would want to go into competitive athletics and work to build muscle (I'm sure there must be some.. but most of the trans women I know personally or know of will avoid anything that might be perceived as masculine, such as athletics)

Though, I think it would be fair to leave it up to whatever athletic organization oversees it. Maybe they need to do some sort of strength testing to make sure they don't exceed some sort of threshold or something. Dunno.

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I'd say no, because this doesn't sound like they're trans or identifying as that gender, they're just goofing off.

Yes but you have to appreciate how difficult this would be should it turn into a lawsuit, which situations like this inevitably will. It'd be a mistake to turn our court systems into spats accusing authentically trans people as "goofing off and not to be taken seriously" and then having people who are clearly goofing off be backed by the SJW-dome of "just let people be themselves, man!" It wouldn't take anything at all for this to expand into matters far more important than a sorority.

Sure. They're body changes with the hormones

I mean yes, but not exhaustively. A transwoman just can't be biologically identical to a ciswoman. Ever. In most situations, close enough is totally fine. But with athletics there is a physiological advantage factor that would have to be considered. It would really skew the playing field.

Thar is assuning that a trans woman would want to go into competitive athletics and work to build muscle (I'm sure there must be some.. but most of the trans women I know personally or know of will avoid anything that might be perceived as masculine, such as athletics)

Yes fair, but again, looking at this from an objective legal standpoint and taking into account the point I just made above, how about those who would go so far as to transition hormonally and everything, for the sole purpose of winning athletic events? They wouldn't care about being a transwoman who was perceived as masculine, they would care about being legally allowed to compete as a woman but winning with a man's advantages. That could be beyond lucrative for them and you have too much faith in humanity if you think someone wouldn't go there.

Your last point kind of addresses that.

Please keep in mind, I don't expect you to have well-thought answers to these questions as we are all just playing off the cuff here. I'm also not arguing to be right either, as you and I are (from a moral perspective) on the same page I think. I'm only poking holes to demonstrate the expansive implications we face legally and ethically, and that there has to be some kind of system in place to be able to play by the rules without everyone going trigger happy with lawsuits.

Just to further question the issue: Should transpeople be allowed to at all athletically compete professionally? I would like to say yes but by transitioning they are unfortunately assuming an unfair disadvantage in competition with their peers by birth sex, and they are stuck with having an unfair disadvantage with their peers by chosen gender. What to do about that? Allow them to be a female but stipulate in professional athletics you must compete based off birth sex?

I'm not saying that's the right answer, just offering more questions and potentially problematic answers that result from all this.

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I'd say no, because this doesn't sound like they're trans or identifying as that gender, they're just goofing off. Thus the sorority can't be charged with discrimination.

I changed the question to deal with a man that is sincerely trying to pass - but simply doesn't have a convincing/believable presence for various reasons. Lawsuits and cases have been made over far less controversial things. Some people use the courts to promote certain social agendas. I wouldn't want to see more cases happen because of perceived injustice.

As I said, people can do whatever they want. As long as they are not trying to dictate how other people should behave in response to the choices they make - I'm happy. Obviously, everyone should follow the law (I'm in no way encouraging violence).

If a very clearly female person trying to present as a man were to hit on me I'd feel extremely uncomfortable. To be clear, I'm also uncomfortable when men pay attention to me or try to flirt as well. There would just be an added layer of "please go away and leave me alone" present. This is also why I avoid situations where flirting and 'single mixing' tends to happen unless my SO is with me.

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The ethnicity and scholarship points, no absolutely not. I would definitely oppose that because as I said, that can be scientifically and objectively disproven.

The age thing, no, I would also not support it if someone just says "I'm a 7 year old kid lolol". However, if they could go to a doctor and have it scientifically and objectively proven they are developmentally delayed to that age, then yes that would be appropriate.

And to your last question, also no. I would not support that. You need to undergo rigorous psychotherapy and medical tests and everything to receive hormonal medication. I don't think people who say "Okay I'm a girl today!" just get to do that consequence-free. If they wanted to subject themselves to the same medical process as those who sincerely identify, then I guess perhaps I could be okay with that.

But, then that moves us into an abyss of gray area where we can ask questions like "well should people need to do those tests to use the restroom? To wear women's clothes? To do x, y, and z? But if they wear women's clothes should they be able to use the restroom?" Etc...and I will freely admit that I don't have any answers to those questions. I really don't know where the line should be drawn. But there should be a line. I guess the best answer I would say now, is that perhaps you should be given access to the appropriate [bathroom/Greek org/etc] that is written on your legal identification papers. That at least moves the argument from a moral one to a legal one. So whatever gray hoops they want to set up to jump through to change your legal indentity should be good enough for your sorority example (but now they would be equally forbidden from joining a fraternity).

I don't have a problem with transgenders generally existing, not one bit. If it's not bringing harm to others then I don't really think about it. I think making it a matter of what your legal identity is and then sticking to that could be one proposed solution, but frankly I just thought of it now so you'll be able to poke plenty holes in it I'm sure.

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if they could go to a doctor and have it scientifically and objectively proven they are developmentally delayed to that age, then yes that would be appropriate.

I agree not only with this point specifically, but also everything else you said leading up to it.

But there should be a line.

I agree.

I guess the best answer I would say now, is that perhaps you should be given access to the appropriate [bathroom/Greek org/etc] that is written on your legal identification papers. That at least moves the argument from a moral one to a legal one. So whatever gray hoops they want to set up to jump through to change your legal indentity should be good enough for your sorority example (but now they would be equally forbidden from joining a fraternity).

That's an interesting point, and one that I have not heard before, so thank you for sharing.

I don't have a problem with transgenders generally existing, not one bit.

Neither do I. People should be happy, follow the law, and do what they want. The minute their 'wants' start dictating how I can/should behave and speak however - is where I start to have problems.

I think making it a matter of what your legal identity is and then sticking to that could be one proposed solution, but frankly I just thought of it now so you'll be able to poke plenty holes in it I'm sure.

Nope, as I said, I haven't come across that idea before and I think it's interesting. I don't have any immediate problems with it right now.

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Well really, it's not necessarily a 'modern' function - there are several cultures that traditionally have non-binary roles (Native American Two-spirits, South Asian hijra)) that have been more or less accepted by the host culture. Even in Western society there are some prominent example of people who could be considered transgender (Mathilde de Morny in Belle Epoque France), even if they were considered outcast and strange.

I think the brain is such a complicated instrument that it's completely feasible for the sex/gender connections to get mixed up. There is also valid scientific research showing that transgender brains show more similarities to their 'correct' gender than the genera they are born with.

Not to mention a small but significant number of children are born with intersex genitals, and are typically assigned either gender at birth. Often they feel real distress if they feel they are brought up as the 'wrong' gender.

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I pretty much feel the same way. I am aware my personal opinion is probably in the minority here, but having known transgender men and women, and what they've gone through (including hormonal treatments and surgery, a process that takes years (and often includes therapy to help them deal with family/friends/social rejection) I have 0 problem with them using the bathroom that they feel more safe in. If someone want to barge into a ladies' restroom to harass someone they will regardless of any rule or law.

Like you said BSC, saying "Haha if I said I was a space cat would that make it true?" is not a comparable analogy. For whatever reason, hormonal, psychological, conditions in the womb, etc -- transgender people truly feel like they were born in the wrong body with the wrong sex organs and are trying to match what's on the outside to what's on the inside.

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Title	IAmA: 7yr old 6'5" Chinese woman
Author	little_red_
Upvotes	14
Comments	38
Date	April 20, 2016 4:48 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/RedPillWives
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWives/comments/4fo9wb/iama_7yr_old_65_chinese_woman/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWives/iama-7yr-old-65-chinese-woman.210087 https://theredarchive.com/post/210087

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