Puppies randomly punished/loved develop stronger affections

[–]3Ill_mumble_that 12 points13 points14 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Modredpillschool 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Let's say I have two options and a time machine.

My first option is to take the "moral" route. I meet a girl and I give her flowers. On our first date, we kiss. Months later I propose. We're in love. Or so I thought. She eventually gets bored, moves on. Says she doesn't feel the spark like she does with this other guy she just met. Jack. He's one helluva guy.

I jump in my time machine and go back to the beginning. I see past me doing this terrible bullshit. I can see what I'm doing wrong as I do it. Her interest in me wanes every time I come home and dote over her. She's lost interest and old me doesn't even realize it. So I start working out, I cut my hair, start looking trim, and I realize that there are ways to appeal to female psychology. One night she's out, and old me is at home doing dishes. I approach her. I'm so jacked she doesn't even realize I'm the same person. My personality is unpredictable and enchanting, she finds herself magically drawn to me, but she couldn't explain exactly why.

Eventually she tells me she's going to divorce her husband for me because I'm perfect for her.

Which me do I want to be right now?

[–]3Ill_mumble_that 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Modredpillschool 41 points42 points43 points 13 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

My point was that sexual strategy is amoral. You might stick to your values, but those who have sex .. have sex.

It's best illustrated through our ancestors. The idea was that whether or not we like the methods used- whoever procreated made children, and those who didn't.. didn't.

Your understanding of how morality works is a bit flawed here. You see, there is no universal morality. There is nothing in the universe applying any law other than those of physics. The rest is abstraction.

Morality is not black and white.

Let's look at stealing for instance. If I steal a loaf of bread, we would normally consider that wrong. But what if I were a starving child on the street and I have no other way of surviving? If I stole that bread and ate it to survive the night, was this right? Is it a grey area?

People make value judgements every day to determine what the best survival strategy is, (and to maximize happiness if basic needs are met).

Most people realized very early on that one good survival strategy was to not be murdered. Sounds pretty basic. So a social contract was developed. I won't murder you if you don't murder me!

But if somebody invades our group, we can kill them!

So we can see that even killing is not right or wrong in a black and white sense.

Murder, stealing, rape, these were all concepts that most people entering into the social contract said, I don't want these things, my best strategy is to cooperate, therefore I should not do them. And the basic framework of morality was built.

Killing Nazis? Moral. Killing your neighbor? Immoral. A simple code to pass on the social contract that enables society and really helped us as a species!

I think you and I agree when I say that we've both signed on to this concept. I don't want to be murdered, and I willingly take part in a social contract of not murdering. Most people have this concept built in evolutionarily- it's called empathy! Empathy helped groups to survive. Empathy follows this model, as most felt righteous or indifferent towards the killing of enemies and food.

So, yes, there is a framework we're calling morality, but understand what gave rise to it and how/why it works. Also understand that morality is not a constant nor objective, and some people have determined a different set of rules will best maximize their success or happiness. If they break our rules, we determine it to be detrimental to our own survival, because we depend on the social contract to exist ourselves!

So we punish murderers. It adds disincentive to breaking our moral code. And I'm fine with that.

Here's where things get a bit hairy. If my mating strategy is to dismiss a maximum number of potential mates (hypergamy), and I tell people certain mating strategies are immoral, then I can get other people to agree to it.

But what happens if this framework isn't based on a contract that benefits all who participate?

What if you signed a contract that said you will pay me $40/month, but I will provide nothing in return?

Eventually you realize that the contract makes no sense!

Sexual strategy is amoral. There are those who have sex, and there are those who do not. What contract will you sign up for? The one that results in you having sex? Or the ones that you're told are moral to uphold but do not bring you sex?

Obviously understanding that we are operating within other frames we believe do benefit us. Obviously rape is a poor decision because it goes against the personal freedom social contract we currently live by. And I support that ideal.

But we're also told that an older man courting a young impressionable 19 year old is immoral because of the age gap- he's too influential, it would be coercion. Tell me, if we avoid doing this out of our sake for morality- where is our benefit in this social contract? It's the feminine imperative you are seeing.

Do not exploit common psychology to build attraction because it is immoral.

This is a prime example of why sexual strategy is amoral. Because at the end of the day, their mating strategy is contingent on beta's failures, and our strategy is based on theirs to fail! Therefore there is no common social contract that we can commit to that benefits both genders. Only men are so easily fooled into entering into these social contracts because they work well for society in general, that they forgot to look at the feminine imperative and ask, but how does that benefit me?

Sexual strategy is amoral.

[–]Gentle-Mang 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago* (25 children) | Copy Link

Philosophers have been debating morality for thousands of years, but now we've got neuroscience so we can see what's going on in the brain when people make moral choices.

The reason we don't generally murder each other isn't because of a social contract, it's because we have a part of our brain that seems to be based on Kantian deontological ethics, the concept that there are moral imperatives and you do not break these rules no matter what. This area is located in the ventromedial prefrontal cortex and contemplates the emotional implications of a moral choice. The rules against your examples of murder, theft, rape are actually hardwired into our brains. Unless you're a psychopath, in which case this area of the brain has significantly lower activity than in non-psychopaths.

There is also a utilitarian morality center in the brain located in the dorsalateral prefrontal cortex. This part of the brain is rational morality, it weighs up the costs and benefits of particular courses of action.

There can often be a conflict between these two morality centers, moral dilemmas are regulated and resolved by the anterior cingular cortex.

Then after all of this has been resolved your higher brain functions will step in to rationalize whatever decision you came to.

So for example you have a runaway train speeding down a track, you stand at a switch that will divert the train from its present course. If you do nothing the train will kill 5 men. If you pull the switch then it will kill 1 man. The utilitarian part of your brain will weigh this up and studies show that most people would decide to pull the switch.

Same scenario, but instead of pulling a switch you have to push a man onto the track in front of the train to save the 5 men... It's the exact same equation in terms of numbers, but because you have to directly take action that would kill someone, you'll have a harder time deciding to do it, because you have a hardwired moral imperative against killing other people.

Here's an article if you're interested: http://brainblogger.com/2012/10/11/what-make-us-moral/

So there is some black and white to morality, it's not all about social contracts. We have hardwirings in our brains that make certain things inherently immoral to us on an emotional level. It is possible to feel immoral about a sexual strategy, therefore sexual strategy is not amoral. If you're a psychopath or a sociopath then you can rely entirely on utilitarian and rationalization, then sexual strategy is amoral because you have no capacity emotional morality.

[–]Modredpillschool 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

The reason we don't generally murder each other isn't because of a social contract, it's because we have a part of our brain that seems to be based on Kantian deontological ethics, the concept that there are rules and you do not break these rules no matter what. This area is located in the ventromedial prefrontal cortex and contemplates the emotional implications of a moral choice. The rules against your examples of murder, theft, rape are actually hardwired into our brains. unless you're a psychopath, in which case this area of the brain has significanlty lower activity than in non-psychopaths.

But we do murder eachother, just typically not within our own tribe. We even honor some killing!

Obviously an aversion to the actual act of killing is instinctual, and it's true, as a cooperative species, we were able to excel because of this empathy.

Now I did use some short hand to explain how social contracts affected our development as people, but you've decided to delve in, so believe it or not, we're not really talking about two different things!

My shorthand was the logical basis for why a system like this would evolve.

Obviously evolution states that only those who survived that pass on genes. The idea here is that that a non-cooperative brand of humans apparently were unable to outlast cooperative groups. Over generations, yes, we adapt biologically. Due to the systems that allowed the species to survive.

We're really not saying two different things here.

[–]Gentle-Mang 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Sorry I missed out the part about the utilitarian moral center of the brain... I just edited it my last post before I saw your reply.

Yes we do murder and commit other immoral acts, and we don't have to be psychopaths in order to do it because the brain is very complicated. But when we do commit an immoral act there are usually emotional consequences, and that's the point that I'm trying to make. Saying that sexual strategy is amoral is all well and good from an evolutionary perspective, but from a personal perspective it simply isn't a good philosophy.

Killing someone because you're fighting for survival, fair enough because if you don't survive there's no more you, every sinew in your body will do what it can to preserve your life. There will be emotional consequences but you'll still be alive.

Sex is not the same as survival. Sex is nice but it's not worth living out of alignment with your values just to get some, because there will be emotional consequences, unless you really are a psychopath. Your emotional wellbeing is more important than getting laid.

[–]Modredpillschool 6 points7 points8 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Saying that sexual strategy is amoral is all well and good from an evolutionary perspective, but from a personal perspective it simply isn't a good philosophy.

Obviously you need to make these value judgements for yourself, I certainly don't disagree. I think I made that clear- some people consider strategies that I have deemed harmful to myself. For instance, I personally don't steal things because I think it's a poor strategy. Obviously somebody who does thinks it's a good one. We differ.

Sex is not the same as survival. Sex is nice but it's not worth living out of alignment with your values just to get some, because there will be emotional consequences, unless you really are a psychopath. Your emotional wellbeing is more important than getting laid.

I won't argue that you can't have values. I'm only arguing that the red pill is a good reason to think long and hard which ones you should hold on to and which ones you shouldn't.

My goal in making these points is to do away with this pervasive idea: that any competitive edge a man can get in the sexual market place is somehow evil.

At the end of the day, I think not raping is a good value to hold on to. But let's look at the older man dating a younger woman concept-

If we followed what society advocates under the banner of morality, a 35 year old man should not date an 18 year old girl because of the power imbalance. Obviously this is a value that if internalized unexamined will only boost the 18 year old's options, because somebody will date her if it's not you, and minimizes yours (artificial restraints).

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Gentle-Mang 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]red0joe 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

but now we've got neuroscience so we can see what's going on in the brain when people make moral choices.

we cannot see what's going on in the brain. we have a dim idea of what parts increase activity, or which parts look like they increased their activity when examined with the technology we have.

The reason we don't generally murder each other isn't because of a social contract, it's because we have a part of our brain that seems to be based on Kantian deontological ethics, the concept that there are moral imperatives and you do not break these rules no matter what. This area is located in the ventromedial prefrontal cortex and contemplates the emotional implications of a moral choice. The rules against your examples of murder, theft, rape are actually hardwired into our brains.

hardwired from birth? Or hardwired by society while you are a toddler? If the latter, is "hardwired" an accurate word?

[–]Gentle-Mang 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

There was one where researchers showed two puppet shows to toddlers, one where a puppet climbs up a mountain and another puppet knocks him down, and another puppet show where the two puppets helped each other. The toddlers would turn to watch the puppet show that depicted cooperation.

Or hardwired by society while you are a toddler?

But I see here you subtly try to invalidate the conclusions of any studies that investigate the behavior of toddlers (of which there are many, including twin and adoption studies), by suggesting that toddlers are susceptible to social conditioning.

I'd be genuinely interested if you can provide any sources that indicate a toddler's susceptibility to social conditioning. Or any parenting books that advise sitting down and talking with your toddler about how murder is wrong.

[–]red0joe 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]3Ill_mumble_that 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I want to be a man who is successful. If having morals, honor, and a strict code will make me successful I would have them.

In modern American society that is not what makes you successful.

I would hardly call being cynical childish. It's been my experience that children are rather altruistic. Blaming the world being a mean place for your failures is childish. But the world is a mean place for a man. Nobody gives us handouts or free stuff for being somewhere and looking good, unless we have male model looks.

The sexual strategy and ideas presented in TRP come with no strings attached. It's a chemistry set, you can make medicine or build bombs. Using these strategies to make women attracted to me, sleep with me, fall in love with me. I'm doing the same thing every other guy is doing, I'm just doing it consciously and intentionally.

Most of us in TRP are just not concerned with morals, If I disagree with something I don't do it. I don't sit here and preach to everyone else here about how I'm better than them because of my "holier than thou" morals.

You wanna raw dog sluts? No judgement, beat that pussy up. Am I a fan? No, I like repeat customers and hate sluts. Does it make me better than the guy who bangs barsluts? Noooope.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]DEVi4TION 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Puppies randomly punished/loved develop stronger affections
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	0
Comments	34
Date	May 2, 2013 2:04 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1djuc7/puppies_randomly_punishedloved_develop_stronger/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/puppies-randomly-punishedloved-develop-stronger.234718 https://theredarchive.com/post/234718

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