Are only male vets subject to die on secret waiting lists? “Our Women’s Health Center offers multiple services including a separate waiting room for women.”

[–]chavelah 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]notheanix -4 points-3 points-2 points 12 years ago* (26 children) | Copy Link

Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? It is a god damned women's health center in a VA. Why would a man be waiting there? WHY?

This is the third time I have seen you post a link where you attribute some grave conspiracy to innocent content. There is nothing in either of your links that supports "secret lists" for Men.

As for the "secret waiting lists," thing. The only potentially malevolent about them is the "waiting" part. No medical facility would have public waiting lists. Have you heard of HIPAA?

Why are there waiting lists at all? Because the VA is underfunded and is frequently run incompetently.

Edit: I am withdrawing my claim that the VA is underfunded. Not because of the anecdotes a few of you have given or due others misunderstandings of what "per vet" means. I am withdrawing it because I can't separate claims of failed promised benefits from political maneuvering, and I have no way connecting various failures like denied benefits or high rates of homeless vets to the VA budget.

[–]OrgotekRainmaker 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]notheanix -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]OrgotekRainmaker 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]notheanix 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]notheanix -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TracyMorganFreeman 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]notheanix -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]TracyMorganFreeman -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]notheanix -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

I'm pointing out the flaws in your argument. You can be wrong without me proposing an alternative.

I get that, but you weren't actually pointing out the parts that were wrong. The "per vet" thing wasn't the wrong part. I.e. comparing average medical spending in the more healthy general population to the medical spending of the VA on the less healthy population of veterans.

That's not a function of under-funding. That's a function of "reducing redundancies" in their style of administration. It's why there's only one rhumatologist via the VA in my area: it's meant to only have one, because more than one based on the services needed is deemed more than necessary.

Which is always justified as a cost cutting measure. Can you show that wait times are actually caused by that? I can't, but I also can't show that it is caused by under-funding.

I too realized that I was reaching too far with my claims. More over, I can't even establish these long waits, except for anecdotes and political narratives.

That said I don't see you pointing out to the other guy that having a large budget does not mean that the VA is not underfunded.

However, I have edited my original post and am retracting my claim.

[–]TracyMorganFreeman -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I.e. comparing average medical spending in the more healthy general population to the medical spending of the VA on the less healthy population of veterans.

You're still using per capita/per vet statistics, which the distribution of spending in each set is not the same, making for an improper comparison.

Which is always justified as a cost cutting measure. Can you show that wait times are actually caused by that? I can't, but I also can't show that it is caused by under-funding.

Having fewer doctors/hospitals=longer wait times for a given level of demand.

I can anecdotally also say that for emergent care availability seems quite adequate. They seem to just prioritize their funding differently than the mainstream, which isn't surprising.

That said I don't see you pointing out to the other guy that having a large budget does not mean that the VA is not underfunded.

I'm saying it's irrelevant what other sources that are not as comparable-at least by the metrics used-have for funding cannot tell us whether it something else is underfunded or not.

[–]notheanix -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]TracyMorganFreeman -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]DougDante[S] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

There is nothing in either of your links that supports "secret lists" for Men.

The secret lists, whatever you may call them, are a fact.

Sharon Helman, director of the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system, is accused with other management officials of keeping a fake waiting list that made it appear sick veterans were being treated in a timely manner -- while hiding the real list that showed up to 1,600 sick veterans were waiting months to see a physician.

Arizona VA boss accused of covering up veterans' deaths linked to previous scandal

Don't believe Fox news? OK. Watch The Daily Show Red Tap Diaries. They literally show the piles of paper forms sitting on the floor and ignored, and show you many vets who are waiting for service.

My question is, are the special waiting rooms for female vets (link above), the exclusive female only vet call in numbers, and the secret orders to destroy medical test requests and the exclusive gathering of performance data by the White House Council on Women and Girls for female vets, and not male vets, an indication that this is not merely bad service for all vets, but an attempt to segregate and provide better service for female vets only?

And if there was such an attempt, did the people who handled these secret lists select women vets out of the list so that they may live and keep the male vets on the list so that they may die?

Did they select out vets based on sexual orientation?

How about race?

What about Jewish vets?

The Valkyrie; handmaidens of the gods, choosing who will live and who will die, sparing the most heroic from an agonizing death. One cannot understand National Socialism if one does not understand Wagner.

Adolf Hitler as portrayed in the film Valkrie

(Yup, I went there, because if people are secretly killing off vets and picking and choosing who lives and who dies based their protect class, whether race, sexual orientation, or gender, they deserve the comparison)

[–]notheanix -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

My question is, are the special waiting rooms for female vets (link above), the exclusive female only vet call in numbers[2] , and the secret orders to destroy medical test requests[3] and the exclusive gathering of performance data by the White House Council on Women and Girls for female vets, and not male vets, an indication that this is not merely bad service for all vets, but an attempt to segregate and provide better service for female vets only?

No, unless you or someone else can provide evidence that they are. You are begging the question here.

There is nothing in either of your links that supports "secret lists" for Men.

The secret lists, whatever you may call them, are a fact.

Sharon Helman, director of the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system, is accused with other management officials of keeping a fake waiting list that made it appear sick veterans were being treated in a timely manner -- while hiding the real list that showed up to 1,600 sick veterans were waiting months to see a physician.

FOR MEN? I see nothing here indicating that Men are being excluded here.

Did they select out vets based on sexual orientation?

How about race?

What about Jewish vets?

The Valkyrie; handmaidens of the gods, choosing who will live and who will die, sparing the most heroic from an agonizing death. One cannot understand National Socialism if one does not understand Wagner. Adolf Hitler as portrayed in the film Valkrie (Yup, I went there, because if people are secretly killing off vets and picking and choosing who lives and who dies based their protect class, whether race, sexual orientation, or gender, they deserve the comparison)

Where is your evidence?

[–]DougDante[S] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

No, unless you or someone else can provide evidence that they are. You are begging the question here.

So a separate phone number and a separate waiting room are not evidence of segregation?

segregation is "the action or state of setting someone or something apart from other people or things or being set apart." (google).

It seems to me to meet the definition.

With the populations increasingly segregated based on protected class, it promotes the appearance of a separate but equal system.

Then you have the White House Council on Women and Girls pressuring for more services for women vets exclusively and getting it:

Delivered Unprecedented Levels of Benefits for Women Veterans. In fiscal year (FY) 2013, VA delivered benefits to significantly more women Veterans, including: compensation benefits to 329,390 women Veterans (up 9 percent); education benefits to 122,000 women Veterans (up 14 percent); and pension benefits to 12,651 w omen Veterans (held steady with FY 2012). VA also provided $1.9 billion in home loan guaranty benefits to 32,921 women Veterans (up 28 percent) and admitted 17,741 women Veterans to the vocational rehabilitation and employment program (up 8 percent). As of November 2013, the Veterans Retraining Assistance Program has successfully aided over 12,542 unemployed women Veterans with up to 12 months of training assistance.

WHITE HOUSE COUNCIL ON WOMEN AND GIRLS RECENT AGENCY ACCOMPLISHMENTS MARCH 2014 http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/docs/wh_cwg_agency_march_reports_.pdf

More benefits for women is fine so long as the benefits provided meet the constitutional and legal requirements for equal access.

Does this system, characterized by off the books secret wait lists, segregated phone lines, segregated waiting rooms, and pressure from the white house to deliver more services to one protected class exclusively, one that meets or does not meet its Constitutional and statutory requirements for equal access based on gender?

There is strong circumstantial evidence that the systems of the VA, as implemented under this White House and under the guidance of the White House Council on Women and Girls (as outlined in their report), and based on the information in these reports as well as the statements from the White House, may not meet the Constitutional and statutory requirements for equal access.

Based on these reports, there is strong circumstantial evidence of gender discrimination at the VA, and I feel that someone should be looking into the matter.

And if it's not equal based on one protected class, if people within the system were prepared to put veterans in mortal danger based one one protected class, why not others?

Right now there is only strong circumstantial evidence for discrimination at the VA based on gender, and none based on any other protected class (well none relating to the actions of employees in these reports, I'm certain that you will find the usual reports of racism and homophobia we see at all governmental entities if you look). I probably would have edited that out of my initial statement above, but you pretty much quoted the whole thing, so there's no point.

[–]notheanix -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

I see you deleted a major portion of your initial reply.

So a separate phone number and a separate waiting room are not evidence of segregation?

I guess we should make all restrooms unisex. Cause that would be segregation...

Your question is not just about segregation, but also:

an indication that this is not merely bad service for all vets, but an attempt to segregate and provide better service for female vets only?

An act of segregation in itself does not make the second question answer as true.

Then you have the White House Council on Women and Girls pressuring for more services for women vets exclusively and getting it:

Nothing in your quote or link says that women are exclusively getting better treatment, only that they are getting better treatment.

The fact of the matter is that the percentage of women in the military has grown over the last decade. If you haven't noticed, women's biological and psychological needs are different from Men.
One of the issues that the VA has is that many Vets do not know about the benefits they can receive. In fact if you look on their website under performance one of their three agency priorty goals is to "Improve Veteran Access to VA Benefits and Services". The VA has a special group for every group for just about every issue.

Like I said, I'm concerned that this system, characterized by off the books secret wait lists,

Characterized? By one administrator? Really? The whole VA is now characterized by one shitty administrator?

segregated waiting rooms

In a women's health center. You know where they go to see a gynecologist. I am sure if you need a vist to your gyno doctor you will wait in the same room as the women.

Nearly 90 percent of all Vets are men.

In 2011, 2.2 million vets were women. In 2013, there were 390,000 Women that received medical services.

As of 2011, there were 20 million Male veterans. In 2013, there were 5,300,000 unique male patients.

Of the total number of female veterans, 17.7% recieved treatment.

Of the total number of male veterans, 26.5% received treatment.

Source: http://www.va.gov/vetdata/

Per person per gender, men are still receiving more medical treatment.

Edit: Grammar

[–]DougDante[S] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Note I gave several examples of problems reported over many years, and nationwide.

My questions are:

Are women vets who attempt to access healthcare services subject to the same off the books secret wait lists, deleted test requests, and other services as men?

Are women vets who attempt to access healthcare services subject to the same off the books secret wait lists, deleted test requests, and other services as men, when attempting to access services specifically related to women? (e.g., no secret wait lists for gynaecological tests, but secret wait lists for heart related tests)

Do people who secretly manage these paper lists, screen out and give preferential treatment to women vets over men vets who attempt to access healthcare services from the off the books secret wait lists, deleted test requests, and other services?

Are male vets who, as a population are older and more likely to have combat injuries, disproportionately impacted when their attempt to access healthcare services is subject to off the books secret wait lists, deleted test requests, and other services?

Given that the Whitehouse Council on Women and Girls used its "agency" powers to pressure the VA to offer better services for women vets year to year, did they provide fixes for women vets and girl vets, including segregated call in line and segregated waiting rooms, that gave women and girls better access to healthcare services, or allowed them to avoid or lessen the impact of, widely reported problems faced by vets who attempt to access healthcare services, including off the books secret wait lists, deleted test requests, and other services?

Does that unequal access violate the nondiscrimination clauses of the ACA and other laws or the fourteenth amendment rights of men vets?

If so, what did the Whitehouse Council on Women and Girls know about these violations of federal law and the rights of vets, and when did they know it?

If they did not know, did the Whitehouse Council on Women and Girls construct a reporting system, including exclusive updates on services for women and girls, that would allow discrimination against men and boys in which they would be intentionally and willfully ignorant of discrimination and other violations of law?

Do I know for certain that there was discrimination? No.

Do I think that there was means, motive and opportunity? Yes.

Should there be an investigation? Yes.

[–]notheanix 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Note I gave several examples of problems reported over many years, and nationwide.

No, you simply repeated your claims. Of those that you listed, the Fox News article was only national in the sense that that specific administrator in question. They are not claiming that her problems are national. More, over THEY HAVE NOT SEEN THE LIST. This is not evidence. They are simply repeating the claim.

The Dailyshow claims are neither, secret, related to healthcare, or exclusive to MEN.

Are women vets who attempt to access healthcare services subject to the same off the books secret wait lists, deleted test requests, and other services as men?

Are women vets who attempt to access healthcare services subject to the same off the books secret wait lists, deleted test requests, and other services as men, when attempting to access services specifically related to women? (e.g., no secret wait lists for gynaecological tests, but secret wait lists for heart related tests)

Again, you have no evidence these lists exist, much less that they are sexist in nature.

Are male vets who, as a population are older and more likely to have combat injuries, disproportionately impacted when their attempt to access healthcare services is subject to off the books secret wait lists, deleted test requests, and other services?

Not unless you can show that they are.

While we are asking accusatory questions without any merit, have you stopped beating your wife?

If so, what did the Whitehouse Council on Women and Girls know about these violations of federal law and the rights of vets, and when did they know it?

Given that the Whitehouse Council on Women and Girls used its "agency" powers to pressure the VA to offer better services for women vets year to year, did they provide fixes for women vets and girl vets, including segregated call in line and segregated waiting rooms, that gave women and girls better access to healthcare services, or allowed them to avoid or lessen the impact of, widely reported problems faced by vets who attempt to access healthcare services, including off the books secret wait lists, deleted test requests, and other services?

You have no evidence that WCoW is even responsible for their claims. As I said, the population of Women vets is growing faster than any other group. Year over year an increase in those treated is expected. You are the one making these claims, so go do your job of researching these numbers.

SInce you edited in claims and links in your initial post, I didn't address them before. I will now.

the exclusive female only vet call in numbers

This is irrelevant to secret wait lists. For this to be discrimination, you need to show that these women hotlines actually provide faster or better care.

the secret orders to destroy medical test requests[

You may be on to something here, but until something definitive comes from this your questions are still baseless. The recorded conversation is from 2 minutes of out of context dialogue. For the record, this has been investigated by the VA and OSC. Not to mention that administrators have been in front of congress to answer questions.

If they did not know, did the Whitehouse Council on Women and Girls construct a reporting system, including exclusive updates on services for women and girls, that would allow discrimination against men and boys in which they would be intentionally and willfully ignorant of discrimination and other violations of law?

WCIC did not collect this information. The VA has a database with all of this information already in it. Their numbers are probably from the exact same place I got mine (the link I left above).

[–]marauderp -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]notheanix 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

No, unless you or someone else can provide evidence that they are. You are begging the question here.

Read the conversation again.

There is nothing in either of your links that supports "secret lists" for Men.

The secret lists, whatever you may call them, are a fact.

His assertion is circular.

What is his evidence?

Sharon Helman, director of the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system, is accused with other management officials of keeping a fake waiting list that made it appear sick veterans were being treated in a timely manner -- while hiding the real list that showed up to 1,600 sick veterans were waiting months to see a physician.

I ask for evidence and he simply reasserts it.

Also, from wikipedia

The fallacy of petitio principii, or "begging the question", is committed "when a proposition which requires proof is assumed without proof"

[–]DougDante[S] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]notheanix 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]DougDante[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Comments