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"What about teh menz" applauds feministing for publishing a dishonest and disrespectful article about male victims of sexual harassment.

[deleted]

June 22, 2011
29 upvotes
/r/MensRights

http://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2011/06/21/feministing-calls-hollywood-on-its-rape-double-standards/#comment-440

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Post Information
Title "What about teh menz" applauds feministing for publishing a dishonest and disrespectful article about male victims of sexual harassment.
Author

[deleted]

Upvotes 29
Comments 37
Date June 22, 2011 10:37 AM UTC
(15 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/i63br/what_about_teh_menz_applauds_feministing_for/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/what-about-teh-menz-applauds-feministing-for.1038290
https://theredarchive.com/post/1038290
Red Pill terms in post
double standardsstandards

Comments

[–]BarryOgg 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't have time to read full article at feministing at the moment, but the quotes at WATM don't seem that bad. Can anyone plese calmly explain what are the people here angry about? (And I mean this specific article, not WATM in general)

Edit: OK, I've read the problematic part. Still, one can hope that the article is not a token gesture, but a sign that they're starting to get it. Silly idealistic of me to think that, I know.

[–]samadams1970 6 points7 points8 points 15 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

I don't know what you people are bitching about. The blog makes an excellent point about the double standard regarding sexual harrassment. Men are held accountable by the public for behavior that women get a pass on. To me, this is really the crux of the issue when it comes to men's rights.

Also "What about teh menz" is a great blog. I've been quite impressed with it.

[–]Alanna 4 points5 points6 points 15 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Did you read the original Feministing post? It was great, up until the second-to-last paragraph:

The only reason it’s considered acceptable, and commercially viable, to make a feature-length punchline out of sexually criminal behavior is because it’s being done by a woman to a man. Which, as we all know, is hilarious, because women don’t ever harass or assault men – the idea that they would is just so topsy turvy that it is laugh-inducing. Except that women do sometimes harass and assault men – far less frequently than men harass and assault women, I’ll grant you. But it does happen, and it’s not funny. [Emphasis mine]

I believe what everyone is bitching about is that that one line turns the whole post into just a set up for a victimhood pissing contest. Everything she complains about in her post about men-- yeah, it sucks, and you should all know it sucks, but, don't ever forget, women STILL have it worse. So instead of a powerful message about abuse knowing no bounds of gender, we get a "No, BAD Hollywood, you shouldn't do that!" It's not a matter of underreporting, of not being taken seriously when reported, of not even recognizing harassment/rape when it's being perpetrated against you, of gender politics skewing numbers, of there being almost no support for male victims of abuse or rape-- nope, it's all pop culture's fault for showing movies like this. Which came first, the (legal and political suppression of male victims) chicken or the (pop culture denying male victimhood) egg?

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 15 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Your point is valid, and I agree that a victimhood pissing contest is hardly desirable. However, it's not really news that most rapes are committed by men. That doesn't have to reflect any universal truth about men, but the statistics are pretty daunting.

There is probably some error caused by the social stigma that exists against men reporting rapes by women, because it is seen as embarrassing, but whether or not that accounts for all of the difference remains up for speculation.

[–]Alanna 8 points9 points10 points 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

However, it's not really news that most rapes are committed by men. That doesn't have to reflect any universal truth about men, but the statistics are pretty daunting.

Let's talk statistics.

Within relationships, most of the 3% of men who reported being subjected to forced sex, reported forced vaginal sex (2.1%). More men reported forced vaginal sex than women did (1.6%). Numbers for verbally coerced sex were 22% for men and 25% for women. Source

(Thank you to girlwriteswhat for statistic and citation)

Almost 3% of men reported forced sex and 22% reported verbal coercion in a romantic relationship in the last year. Almost 2.3% of women reported forced sex and 25% reported verbal coercion. From: Predictors of Sexual Coersion.

94% of sexually abused youth in correctional facilities reported being abused by female staff. From Sexual Victimization in Juvenile Facilities, 2008-09

Among inmates reporting staff sexual misconduct, ~ 65% reported a female aggressor. From Sexual Victimization in Prisons and Jails Reported by Inmates, 2008-09

50% of homeless youth reported being sexually abused by a female. From It’s Not What You Think: Sexually Exploited Youth in British Columbia

From the report on inmates, here are a few highlights:

Female inmates in prison (4.7%) or jail (3.1%) were more than twice as likely as male inmates in prison (1.9%) or jail (1.3%) to report experiencing inmate- on-inmate sexual victimization.

Sexual activity with facility staff was reported by 2.9% of male prisoners and 2.1% of male jail inmates, compared to 2.1% of female prisoners and 1.5% of female jail inmates.

(Thank you to rantgrrl for statistics and citations)

Tl;dr - there is increasing evidence that female-on-male rape is almost as prevalent, if not as or even more prevalent, as male-on-female rape. And that's not even counting the shocking incidence of male-on-male prison rape (because inmates are overwhelmingly male).

What causes it? Well, unlike some fucked-up definition of rape that includes any unwanted sexual contact whatsoever (not saying ass-grabbing on the bus is cool, but it's not rape), or any sex that a woman has any negative feeling towards (such as a wife caving into her husband saying, "Oh, come on honey, we haven't had sex in two weeks," which is also not rape), men who woke up at parties to strange women having sex with them don't think of what happened to them as rape, even if they feel awful about it. Yeah, this happens to women, but we have huge amounts of resources going towards trying to educate women that that IS rape; there are NO resources going towards educating women or men that it's rape regardless of gender, and this is not the first movie to make light of such behavior. "40 Days and 40 Nights," (admittedly not a memorable movie but it was popular at the time) feature a scene that, had the roles been reversed, would have been unequivocally rape, but because it's a woman forcing sex on the man, it's played for laughs. Hell, there's an entire trope over at TV Tropes, something like "Rape is Funny if the Victim is a Man."

So, the first thing, is to educate men and women that rape knows no gender boundaries. Rape is rape, regardless of who's doing the raping or who is the victim. The second thing is to encourage men to report it, and to hold law enforcement and other authorities accountable for taking them seriously. The third thing is to be as outraged at depictions like this movie, as outraged as feminists would be if the roles were reversed and the harassment was trivialized.

These are all more easily said than done, I will admit, but nothing worth doing is ever easy. But before we can do ANY of that we need to get past this assumption that women never or almost never rape. As one commenter on one of those posts put it, if men and women are equal, why wouldn't they be equally capable of callous cruelty and violence?

[–]disposable_human 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Posts like this make me wonder what happens when I click "save" at the bottom.

[–]Alanna 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm sorry?

(Edit Clarification: I mean that in a "What are you talking about?" way, not a "Am I supposed to apologize?" way)

[–]disposable_human 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I think it's RES that adds a 'save' button at the bottom of posts you'd like to come back to. I thought you made (and referenced) a lot of good points I'd like to do the same to.

I was kind of half complimenting you, half fishing for an understanding of what I was doing with the button.

[–]Alanna 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh. Yes, RES lets you save comments the way you save posts (or that's my understanding, I don't have it). My stats are, as credited, from girlwriteswhat and rantgrrl respectively. I'd like to collect more studies on male rape; I know I've seen others in other places.

Thanks for the compliment. :)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Thank you, that's a very informative post!

The statistics you quoted notably excludes one area: Sexual assault. I think that's an important area, since it's what people stereotypically think of when you mention the word "rape" — a random person attacking you, forcing you to have intercourse with them.

Do you have any similar statistics about assault rape?

[–]Alanna 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

No, I don't, but "forcible rape" (the violent stranger rape you're talking about) is the rarest of all types of rape.

Edit: I do want to add that I think you are correct, most people think gunpoint in an alleyway, and I suspect that's also a large part of the reason people think men don't get raped; the picture of a woman, even with a gun, forcing a strange man to have sex with her just seems unrealistic (whether or not it is, that's the perception).

[–]samadams1970 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't think that one line -- which I agree is bullshit -- negates the value of the entire post. It's not the equivalent of a cockroach in your chocolate ice cream. I wouldn't throw out the whole thing. It's a positive thing whenever anyone -- feminist or not -- identifies a double standard in which the oppression of men is acknowledged. Most feminists do not acknowledge these things. When they do, I consider it a minor miracle.

[–]Alanna 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Feminists acknowledge the double standard all the time. The problem is they usually frame it as "men are victims of patriarchy too," or call it "benevolent sexism." I don't know that it negates the entire post, in that the post does draw attention to the issue very well (aside from that line), and it may get readers to think about the issue in a way they hadn't before, but it can't be denied that one of the (if not the) reasons why male rape is so ignored, dismissed, and/or considered ridiculous is that people, especially feminists who should (or do) know better, continue to make a point of emphasizing how insignificant the problem is.

[–]jmnzz 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"I don't know what you people are bitching about."

Neither do the people over at "What about teh menz"

Which is why it, like all feminist blogs, will be called out on its BS.

[–]Scott2508 4 points5 points6 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

we can accept that that blog is an absolute farce .

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

I do not find the Feministing article to be dishonest or disrespectful at all. I don't understand what you're trying to say.

[–]Alanna 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Here's the issue.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

It's not a victimhood pissing contest at all. I am a man and an advocate for equal rights for all, and it is my understanding that women are more often the recipients of sexual harassment than men. I don't know anyone who has ever claimed otherwise. So I don't see the point of trashing a whole article that is sympathetic towards men just because the author pointed out what is common knowledge.

EDIT: I'm trying to be serious and respectful here. If you feel the need to downvote, at least have the courage to tell me why you think my statement is not worthy of contribution.

[–]Alanna 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

I didn't downvote you, FWIW.

The author pointed out the conventional wisdom that you're so glibly parroting, that "women are more often the recipients of sexual harassment than men." A quick Google search reveals that sexual harassment of men is a significant and increasing problem. It's true that sexual harassment claims are still overwhelmingly from women, but male claims have doubled over the last 20 years, and continue to increase. And that doesn't begin to take into account all the men who are harassed and never mention it to anyone.

That's just harassment. See my response to simonask for numbers on rape. You may be surprised.

The point of trashing the entire article is that she is repeating "common knowledge" that is dismissive of thousands, perhaps millions of victims and contributes to the very issue that keeps them from being even recognized, let alone heard. Every time you or someone like you says something like "everyone knows women are raped far more often than men," you just reinforce rape as a gendered crime that men commit against women, and as long as we keep treating it this way, male victims will continue to be as shit on as female victims used to be (and, to be fair, in parts of this country and many parts of the world, still are).

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Neither I nor the author of the article ever said or suggested that rape of men or harassment of men is not important or that these are gendered crimes. I think people are taking one stray fact mentioned in the article and blowing it all out of proportion.

[–]Alanna 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, I addressed this all in my comment I originally linked to.

far less frequently than men harass and assault women, I’ll grant you.

It's not just a "stray fact." Professional authors don't just add in "stray facts." It was completely unnecessary to even compare rates of harassment, let alone diminish male victims' plight by saying "far less frequently," but she did. Why? Why separate them at all? Why can harassment be harassment, why does harassment of men have to be different in some way than harassment of women? Why does it have to be marginalized by pointing out that it's (reported) far less than harassment of women? There are two reasons I can see. First, she wanted to placate her feminist readers. I can understand that, but it kind of misses the point-- if she's trying to drive home a point traditionally unpopular with feminists, it seems counterproductive to hamstring it by putting in a "don't worry, ladies, we know you still have it worse." Or, as most of the men here assume, she's not trying to assert men's rights at all, she's pointing out that as much as the situation depicted in this movie might suck for men, women still have it worse than that. And that's what the objection is.

Edit: To make it clearer-- it's like telling someone with AIDS they should be glad they don't have cancer. Both suck; it's unnecessary to compare how much one sucks to another; and it's especially shitty to tell someone with one how much worse the other is.

[–]disposable_human 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

As per your request, I'm the second person to downvote you. I downvoted you because you bitched about a single person downvoting you.

Regarding your point, I think the reason sexual harassment isn't seen as a problem for men is... circular. No one thinks women cat-calling or groping men is a problem. When someone has a problem with it, they're usually publicly shamed. The interpretation being that if they're made uncomfortable by it, they're gay.

edit: I ended up not downvoting you. Meh.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

But the author is acknowledging that sexual harassment against men is real. She just said women are harassed more than men are.

[–]disposable_human -2 points-1 points0 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I wasn't strictly talking about what the author thinks. I was saying what I thought. I honestly don't care what she thinks.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Well, my advice is that in the future you read the article so you understand the context of the discussion rather than jumping straight to the comments and making assumptions about what other people believe.

[–]disposable_human -2 points-1 points0 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ass. I read the article. I was trying to have an opinion. Can I have an opinion?

[–]jmnzz 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Well...I was right. I said that they would be unable to call out feminism for its bigotry and they can't.

Take a look at the newest post. Mindbeam calls out feminism on its lie about helping everyone but when he gets to his critique of the MRM he says the MRM is wrong because MRAs place the blame for a lot of men's problems on feminism.

I feel this will be the running theme of all the contributors. They will speak about some issues men have and complain about the majority of feminists not wanting to help men but they will never admit that feminism is the root cause for many issues men face today.

I don't usually toot my own horn but...Toot Toot.

[–]rantgrrl 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

but they will never admit that feminism is the root cause for many issues men face today.

That's because it isn't.

The root cause of most of men's issues is male expendability which is an amoral practice of almost every society on earth.

Feminists in many ways rely on male expendability to operate, but that's no different then any other regime now or historically.

Same shit, different bucket.

[–]jmnzz 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Feminists created VAWA.

Feminists are pushing for female criminals to no longer receive jail time in the UK.

Feminist run domestic violence shelters have routinely denied male victims of abuse any help and actively propagate that there are no male victims or female perpetrators of domestic abuse.

Men being the disposable workhorses and bodyguards of society is a problem and that problem has made it easier for feminism to cause the damage it has done.

But that in no way absolves feminism of the blame it deserves.

It's the same thing as someone being arrested for a DUI but saying the resulting accident wasn't their fault because someone talked them into drinking. While that person may have been legitimately coerced into drinking because of peer pressure or wanting to shut their friend up, the blame for the accident is still theirs.

Feminism is the cause of many of the problems men face and until feminists will admit to that and actively protest it there will be no middle ground with MRAs. At least that is what I believe.

And so far the contributors at ozymandias's site seem to be ignoring the blatantly obvious evidence that feminism has caused much discrimination towards men. They say that MRAs are wrong to blame feminism for the problems of men.

Well MRAs have every right to blame feminism. I know this and I am not even an MRA to the fullest extent of the term. So while I appreciate your correct analogy about the societal perception of men in the west, and I will admit that the root problem is this perception, feminism is still the direct cause for many problems men face.

A better way to put it is this; the societal perception of men in the west is the gun and feminism is the one that picked it up and pulled the trigger.

[–]rantgrrl 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I would say that feminism is more of a symptom of male expendability.

[–]Fatalistic 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's funny because feminists have become the very bigots they claim that all men are.

[–]KMFCM 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

when were they not?

[–]Alanna 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

There was a great comment to the Feministing article.

I agree what about teh menz should have also called out Feministing the way the comment I linked above did for their wholly unnecessary dismissive victimhood one-up-manship.

(Edit: After reading both articles and the comments, I get more why people are upset at what about teh menz.)

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

With the feminist fixation on everything rape, it would seem that quite a few of these ladies have rape fantasies.

[–]Alanna 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

TBH, I think the seeming obsession with rape comes from a small group of rape victims who literally see rape everywhere. Melissa McEwan of Shakesville comes to mind. They subconsciously self-select and then write about how all the women they know have been repeatedly raped and abused, how everything they see on TV or hear on the radio reinforces rape culture, and how selfish men are to try to take the spotlight off female victims for even a second to talk about either male victims of false claims or male victims of rape.

Rape fantasies are extremely common, and, in my (admittedly anecdotal experience) don't cause this kind of single-focus preoccupation.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

"I can prove to you that rape can be funny. Picture porkie pig raping Elmer fudd." - George Carlin

[–]Alanna 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, rape can be funny, like all the worst things in life. I happen to believe that's what laughter is for, keeping us strong against the worst in life. But it's not cool to think that a man raping a woman is "OMG WORST THING EVAR" cannot ever be funny, but a man getting raped by a woman, not only is that "LOL!!" but it's not even considered rape.

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