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There was never a good wave of feminism.

colombomumbojumbo

November 4, 2021

39 upvotes

/r/MensRights

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycVoYEU6bdE

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Title	There was never a good wave of feminism.
Author	colombomumbojumbo
Upvotes	39
Comments	34
Date	November 4, 2021 12:20 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/qmjbtr/there_was_never_a_good_wave_of_feminism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/there-was-never-a-good-wave-of-feminism.1080063 https://theredarchive.com/post/1080063

Comments

[–]colombomumbojumbo[S] 20 points21 points22 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]slipkid223 17 points18 points19 points 4 years ago (34 children) | Copy Link

[–]auMatech 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]colombomumbojumbo[S] 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]beingthehunt 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]auMatech 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]beingthehunt -5 points-4 points-3 points 4 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

[–]auMatech 8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]colombomumbojumbo[S] 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]beingthehunt 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]colombomumbojumbo[S] 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]JohnGawel 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]beingthehunt 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]colombomumbojumbo[S] 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]beingthehunt 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]ne14611braska 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]beingthehunt 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]auMatech 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]beingthehunt 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

any pushback on anything that feminism stands for is automatically categorised as harmful to gender equality.

I'm not saying that at all. I fully agree that harm has been perpetrated in the name of feminism (both intentionally and unintentionally). That doesn't make all people who call themselves feminist bad; it makes some people who call themselves feminist bad at being feminist (using the word 'feminist' as they themselves would use it, to mean promoting gender equality.)

What you believe and what is actually happening due directly to feminism are two different things entirely

Yes! we are exactly in agreement. Some people who truly believe in gender equality are misguided and do more harm than good. So we can't judge others just based on the label they go by.

go back to my previous statement about the no true Scotsman fallacy.

I can't really comment on that until you give me your definition of feminism. You said "feminism is harmful" but I don't know what you mean by the word feminism in that statement. I'm fairly sure you don't mean "belief in gender equality is harmful" so you need to give me your definition.

If feminism stands for equality, why is it not called egalitarianism?

I agree that it is a term that is misleading and provocative. If it was up to me I would change it. Again, this is why we need to define our terms, otherwise we think we are talking about the same thing but actually we aren't.

[–]auMatech 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm not saying that at all. I fully agree that harm has been perpetrated in the name of feminism (both intentionally and unintentionally). That doesn't make all people who call themselves feminist bad; it makes some people who call themselves feminist bad at being feminist (using the word 'feminist' as they themselves would use it, to mean promoting gender equality.)

This is literally no true Scotsman again. People who are malicious are (in your opinion) misguided or are "bad at being feminist".

Sure, not all feminists are bad people, that doesn't mean that the agenda of feminism as a movement has positive intentions at heart, especially considering feminist's roots as a domestic terrorist organisation.

We can argue until the cows come home about whose definition of feminism is the 'real' one (yours, or the ones' who are doing it "wrong"). But the point here remains that just because you believe feminism to stand for equality doesn't mean that actually does, especially given the historic track record.

You are obviously free to believe that your interpretation of feminism is about equality, and that's fine. This also once again doesn't indicate that this is the mainstream consensus.

I truly believe that gender equality, which ever form that may take can be a positive thing, which is why I consider myself an egalitarian.

[–]beingthehunt 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

This is literally no true Scotsman again.

I see what you mean, but I am using the definition I already told you I use as well as clarifying that is the definition I was using so I'm not moving any goal posts. I can't use any other definition because you haven't provided one.
Let me try to state this without using a word that we can't agree on the definition of. Some people are pro-gender equality and do things that promote gender equality. Some people are pro-gender equality but do things that oppose gender equality. Some people pretend to be pro-gender equality but are actually anti-gender equality. These three groups might all give themselves the same label, but to judge all three groups are equally bad for gender equality simply because they share a common label does not make sense, nor does it follow that the label itself is bad or that the doctrine/agenda of that label is bad, since there is no consistent doctrine/agenda that fits with all people under that label.

Sure, not all feminists are bad people, that doesn't mean that the agenda of feminism as a movement has positive intentions at heart

That at least is a step in the right direction. I hope that means that when someone tells you that they are a feminist you do not immediately assume they have bad intentions.

We can argue until the cows come home about whose definition of feminism is the 'real' one

I'm not trying to imply there is a 'real' definition of the word feminism, simply that we have different definitions which makes communication on the subject close to impossible. If you told me your definition I would be happy to use your definition to talk to you but you seem to be refusing to do that for some reason. I promise this isn't a trick, I just want to understand what you mean when you use the word so I can better understand you.

I truly believe that gender equality, which ever form that may take can be a positive thing, which is why I consider myself an egalitarian.

Ok, that's great. So would I be right in saying your definition of egalitarianism is "a belief in gender equality"? I would call that a feminism (and therefore I would consider you a feminist) but I'm happy to use the word egalitarian instead for ease of communication.

[–]auMatech 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The issue here is that you're trying to compare your definition to my definition, whereas I'm comparing your definition to the one that the people who you claim are "doing feminism wrong" have.

These three groups might all give themselves the same label, but to
judge all three groups are equally bad for gender equality simply
because they share a common label does not make sense, nor does it
follow that the label itself is bad or that the doctrine/agenda of that
label is bad, since there is no consistent doctrine/agenda that fits
with all people under that label.

Except that feminism has a well documented thought structure, along with the basic building block theories that the movement is based on such as patriarchy theory.

Calling a wolf in sheep's clothing a sheep does nobody any favours and only serves to obfuscate the feminist doctrine's intentions. You might claim to be advocating for equality under the guise of feminism, and not directly follow the doctrine, however this does not change how the doctrine operates.

Handwaving away all the harmful legislation that feminism as a doctrine and movement has implemented by claiming "gender equality" only sidesteps the issue.

That at least is a step in the right direction. I hope that means that
when someone tells you that they are a feminist you do not immediately
assume they have bad intentions.

When someone tells me that they are a feminist, i have a baseline of what to expect. So far these expectations have always ultimately been met. That's not to say that i hate feminists, on the contrary. I don't hate people for holding certain beliefs. People are obviously allowed to have their opinions and beliefs, the problem i generally have is when I am told that due to polarisation as I am not a feminist, anything i believe automatically works against their beliefs, and is therefore 'toxic'.

Ok, that's great. So would I be right in saying your definition of
egalitarianism is "a belief in gender equality"? I would call that a
feminism (and therefore I would consider you a feminist) but I'm happy
to use the word egalitarian instead for ease of communication.

You could define egalitarianism as a belief in gender equality, yes. To call a car a horse is a bit of a stretch though. You are obviously free to define whatever you like, as i mentioned above. This does not mean that i am a feminist though, that ship sailed a long time ago.

[–]beingthehunt -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]tenchineuro 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]beingthehunt 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]tenchineuro 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]beingthehunt 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]tenchineuro 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]beingthehunt 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+]alinastar216 points 4 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Racism is despicable. I would never stand with organizations that promote hate towards people based on their race.

[–]tenchineuro 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link