Genuinely curious (not here to debate but to understand).

baronmad · 2021-12-13T20:47:51+00:00

Personally for me it is how feminism treats women, if you are a woman and you believe that life begins at conception IE pro life, you will get villified by the feminists.

If you are a woman and you choose to be a stay at home mom, you get villified by the feminists.

I believe women should be free to decide things for themselves without any judgement, especially from any group claiming to be for women.

Even worse feminism claims that women would never have been able to accomplish anything without feminism, i reject that whole sale. I believe women are perfectly capable in every possible way and doesnt need feminism to accomplish anything.

If we talk about feminist academia it is an echo chamber where dissenting views are not allowed, and where many things gets accepted because they reach the "correct "viewpoint without bothering checking if the theory is sound in practice or even if it is a valid experiment.

If we talk about lets say Anitaa Sarkeesian as an example of a feminist gamer, criticizing games through a feminist lens. Good for her and even for the gaming industry if its done honestly. But its not done honestly, its done dishonestly.

The core idea is that the reason why there are more male protagonists is that men are oppressing women. There is not a single shred of curiosity towards that most people who play games are men as well which will skew the results, and then when people (not only men) criticize her for this, she goes and cries about misogynists and hateful trolls targeting her on twitter.

Meanwhile in reality there may be a tiny amount of people that do that, the majority is just people that disagree with her. But those people gets lumped in together with the misogynists.

png_savvy · 2021-12-13T19:59:12+00:00

I wouldn't call myself antifeminists by any means (but some of the mainstream femenist are a little crazy imo). I think women do face some reall and serious problems. Expecially in the third world.

But I also think men face reall and serious problems too. Which gender faces greater problems? Probably women in the third world. I don't think it's so clear who has more problems in the first world though.

In my interaction with femenist online I've found they are not willing to tolerate any opinions that differ with theirs. I've been banned from multiple femenist subreddits for just expressing my opinion. Their refusal to engage with any diversity of though is very concerning to me. I value free speech highly, even if I disagree with what's being said.

reddut_gang · 2021-12-14T00:47:07+00:00

It's less the exclusion of men and more the silencing of male advocacy, in more ways than one. If they just left us alone and let us progress towards our side of equality, I wouldn't care about it as much but it's managed to make male advocacy a very taboo topic that you have to tread carefully when discussing. Can't say something too outlandish or step out of line or you're an incel misogynist. Very counterproductive towards actual equality. Furthermore, there's a lot of misinformation and ragebait spread and I know this point might sound ironic coming from an MRA, but believe me, none of our ragebait has been as successful as the perpetuation of the wage gap myth. Now, I understand there exists a stigma against women in certain higher paying fields in early education that leads to a difference in earnings, but that's not what's being parroted by 99% of feminism's followers. I did not see any feminists try to clear up the confusion but rather it was MRAs that served as one of the few bastions reminding people that the wage gap is not literally being paid less for the same job. Consequently, most of the society believes in that shit and it further fuels the narrative that men do not face significant sexism because while equality may not be a zero-sum game, people very much act like it.

The way I see it, when people ask of men's rights, "what rights don't they have?", it's attributed to feminism painting a one-sided picture of gender equality. Yeah no shit they'll say that if you keep grouping the identity of men with the likes of straight and white.

It's also why I view people attempting to claim feminism is inclusive of men's advocacy as a dishonest attempt of derailing. It's literally the opposite of inclusive.

Another point I see get brought up is that it was not feminists that created the systems that are sexist towards men, so the anger and hatred is misplaced and should be directed at conservatives. While it's true that it was mainly the uber-conservative type that is to blame for most sexist policies and institutions, I rarely see these types attempt to impede men's advocacy. Still happens, but very rare. And occasionally, and quite surprisingly, they raise awareness of a certain men's issue. Nine times out of ten the people trying to undermine men's advocacy, men's protests, mental health meetings, and events with regards to International men's day tend to overlap with feminists.

So therefore, I see most of feminism as an obstacle to equality. We are nowhere near gender equality and I don't think we'll be getting there because of feminism. Many will disagree but I think a change of worldview is one of the hardest pills to swallow.

Second reason, it's no secret that there is a lot of misandry oozing from the feminist movement. Like, unprecedented, unadulterated hatred towards men, from all waves. I don't care what virtues a movement says it has, I'm not interested in it if it's going to hate me for my gender.

Its actions reflect its words too. Reason I said is the conservative type is to blame for most men's issues and not all is because feminists have implemented a lot of policies discriminating against men.

Finally, ideologically I disagree with the notion that the genders are like sports teams playing against each other. I don't view male on female or female on male crime any different as I would male on male or female on female crime. I don't agree that men as a class oppress women. I don't agree men, and solely men are responsible for upholding sexist values. I don't agree that the political leader being a male is the reason gender inequality exists. I don't agree that men making up the majority of murders diminishes the fact the majority of victims are men. I don't agree that women are not responsible for their actions. And I definitely don't agree that it is a "patriarchy" that is responsible for every gendered issue.

So all in all, I'm anti-feminist because I believe in gender-egalitarianism and I don't like misandry.

stunspot · 2021-12-14T02:22:55+00:00

I'm not just anti-feminist, I'm anti-woke-in-general. I am fiercely egalitarian. I believe that having the same set of rules for everyone is a sine qua non for any kind of justice in society. Feminists usually advocate double standards. For example, can you agree with the statement "It is wrong to treat people differently because of their race, sexual orientation, or, in this case, gender."? No codicils, no addenda, no corrilaries. Can you agree with it as written? I can. I'm against affirmative action for any group beyond "the poor" as that's not intrinsic.

There are massive problems with the theory. It treats people as if they were exclusively members of their groups. There is absolutely zero acknowledgement that men have legitimate problems. There is never any acknowledgement of wrong doing on the part of women. When women are dominating universities and choosing their own futures, they still complain as though they were a minority!

Until and unless one is willing to acknowledge that anyone can be a misandrist just as they can be a misogynist, I've got zero respect for them and immediately discount their opinions as uneducated. Sexism isn't prejudice + power, it's treating someone differently because of their sex. Until we can agree on those points, there's little point in talking.

JoeSmith1907 · 2021-12-13T20:07:44+00:00

Welcome to the sub. Now to address your question:

Anti feminists believe that men and women are not identical but are complementary and that most men and women are happier when they recognize their complementary roles than when they are in competition with each other.

Anti-feminists oppose a culture that says men bad, women good. In western cultures men do not oppress women more than women oppress men. Men are ordinarily protective of women. Anti feminists also oppose a legal system that denies men due process in Title IX proceedings, that punishes men for saying things that feminists find offensive, and that allows men to be driven out of their homes based on the wife's allegations as can happen under the Violence Against Women Act.

You might also want to see this: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331162798_Misogyny_has_no_scientific_basis_of_any_kind_the_evidence_is_of_philogyny

aincs22 · 2021-12-13T21:27:18+00:00

Thank you all for your replies and taking the time to respond and elaborate. Obviously you don’t owe me these explanations at all, so I do appreciate it and it’s left some very healthy food for thought. It’s always good to hear personalised takes on issues as opposed to hear what people portray those opinions to be. Definitely some solid points here that I’ll be following up with.

Thanks a lot :) 🙏🏽

maxlvb · 2021-12-14T05:22:06+00:00

From my own curiosity I wanted to ask and hear what some of the core reasons are as to why people have antifeminist positions.

Because this is what the founders and leaders of feminism say this is feminism...

Man-hating is everywhere, but everywhere it is twisted and transformed, disguised, tranquilized, and qualified. It coexists, never peacefully, with the love, desire, respect, and need women also feel for men. Always man-hating is shadowed by its milder, more diplomatic and doubtful twin, ambivalence.

Judith Levine

I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.

Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor

The nuclear family must be destroyed… Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process.

Linda Gordon, Feminist

I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.

Andrea Dworkin, Feminist

Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women’s movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage.

Sheila Cronin, the leader of the feminist organization NOW

Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice.

Andrea Dworkin, Feminist

The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist.

Ti-Grace Atkinson, Feminist

Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear.

Susan Brownmiller, Feminist, Against Our Will p.6

Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated.

Catherine MacKinnon, Feminist

The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.

Sally Miller Gearhart, in The Future – If There Is One – Is Female

If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males.

Mary Daly, Feminist

And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference.

Susan Griffin, Feminist, Rape: The All-American Crime

If anyone is prosecuted for filing a false report, then victims of real attacks will be less likely to report them.

David Angier, Feminist

Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.

Catherine Comins, Asst Dean at Vassa, Feminist.

As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women…he can sexually molest his daughters… THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE.

Marilyn French, Feminist Author

I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He’s just incapable of it.

Barbara Jordan, former Congresswoman, Feminist.

Women have their faults / men have only two: / everything they say / everything they do.

Popular Feminist Graffiti

“Hatred of men is actually brave and courageous and we need to celebrate the women who are willing to openly display their hatred towards men.”

Psychologist/Feminist. Tracey Brimmer

I feel like a lot of male Feminists are like that animal that we tried to introduce to eradicate pests, and they've become more annoying than the original pest."

Becky Lucas

So tell me why you call yourself/identify as a feminist.

Men need Feminism like bicycles need fish.

CrowMagpie · 2021-12-13T19:36:41+00:00

Rant warning. Proceed with caution.

I've just recently had a… discussion with somebody on this sub who'd come here to learn the answer to exactly the question you're asking. It got me thinking that this sub really isn't a good place to learn that, since it starts with the assumption that anybody who posts here is already antifeminist. (I don't know what is a good place to learn that.) I considered starting basically this thread as a response - thanks!

Feminism ≠ women.

As for why I'm antifeminist?

>"Is it the theory aspect,

I'm not sure what part of the 'theory aspect' you mean? The theory I keep hearing about feminism is, it's just about equality. I believe in equality between men and women.

However,every single person I've ever spoken to, listened to, read, watched, who has said "I'm a feminist", if I engage with them for any length of time about their feminism, has proved that equality is the last thing in the world they want. Each and every one has said 'I'm the exception - I don't talk in the ways that put you off feminism'. I've yet to encounter the exception.

Some of them seem not to understand (or be willing to understand) what life is like for the average man. Some just don't care. Some want all women to be equal with Prince Charles, or the Sultan of Dubai (see The Male Privilege Checklist by Ampersand).

I had to come to the conclusion that either everyone who says 'I'm a feminist' is lying, or feminism has nothing to do with equality. The latter is easier for me to believe.

> " the way mainstream feminist culture excludes men? Or how masculinity is treated as result ?"

Pretty much. I grew up with the feminist view of men; and I have the scars to prove it.

On both my wrists.

Feminists have constant and consistent hypocritical attitudes against men; saying it's wrong to generalize about women, or to use gendered language about women, then making up terms like 'mansplaining', 'Patriarchy', etc…; they call me 'privileged' to dismiss and ignore my issues; they believe in a massive global conspiracy designed to benefit men at the expense of women; they say that said conspiracy hurts men too when they want to pretend to be empathetic and equality-believing.

And after all that, those same feminists constantly say (in different ways) 'if you think there's a problem with feminism, it's because of somebody else.'

YaraPriest · 2021-12-13T16:36:48+00:00

I am anti-feminist. I have been researching feminism for close to fifteen years and I have been an anti-feminist for just over ten years now.

I am an anti-feminist because I oppose all of the core principles on which feminism is based as well as most of its peripheral concepts.

Most people are followers led in their beliefs like cattle by their instincts, instincts often disconnected from the reality of the ideology to which they subscribe. They all share one common characteristic, near total ignorance. So, I do not ever judge ideologies by the often ignorant and unreliable opinions and actions of their followers, but by their dogma as it is defined by its most celebrated and widely accepted theorists. It is these theorists in feminism and their ideas that I find highly flawed and destructive.

How do you 'work around feminist theory' and what is your experience in feminism?

Olete · 2021-12-13T16:47:07+00:00

I advise you visiting this link to learn about why we don't like feminists and don't agree with them. Those aren't all arguments but they are neatly packed and with sources

zellegion · 2021-12-13T18:48:17+00:00

i am anti-feminism because of believe all women, and the lie that it does not mean believe all women

Remarkable_Weather21 · 2021-12-14T10:03:18+00:00

Just wanna seen at individuak at this point i may even settle with that

Reddit1984Censorship · 2021-12-14T12:01:09+00:00

If i had to sumarize it in one sentence would be: feminism gaslights mens issues, and therefore blocks/hinders/demonizes their addressal.
Im not anti feminsit because i want to take anythign away from women rights and freedoms, im exclusevily antifeminsit because of how feminism actively hurts men.

Title	Genuinely curious (not here to debate but to understand).
Author	aincs22
Upvotes	13
Comments	19
Date	December 13, 2021 3:28 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/AntiFeminists
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/antifeminists/comments/rfi8f9/genuinely_curious_not_here_to_debate_but_to/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/AntiFeminists/genuinely-curious-not-here-to-debate-but-to.1092678 https://theredarchive.com/post/1092678

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