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[–]intjpua 9 points10 points11 points 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
This conversation goes nowhere. She's definitely not interested.
Here's some things you did wrong:
You can't make a woman attracted to you by just continuing to talk to her, even if you're smart and occasionally say something clever. Attraction is not the same as familiarity, and in fact, they are often at opposite ends of the spectrum. The more you talked after she expressed disinterest, the less attractive you became.
Here's how it might have gone slightly better. At this point in the conversation (which is where it's already clear you're wasting your time):
(2:28:33 pm)Her:sorry i do think I will have better connections with older men (2:28:37 pm)Her:but thanks for saying hell
If you really wanted to try to power through...you would have done this, instead:
(2:45:00 pm)(note this is 15+ minutes later!)Me: Sorry for the slow reply, I was in another chat. (2:45:15 pm)What were we talking about? Oh, right, you don't want to be a cougar. lol
And go from there. You qualified yourself immediately, which is just weak sauce...practically water. The age thing is a shit test, and you failed miserably by agreeing to the terms of the test.
I'm not going to bother with the rest of it, because everything was already broken by then. In her eyes you're a lonely sadsack with nothing better to do.
Waiting 15 minutes to reply, and mentioning another chat gives you some minor social proof, it indicates to her that you aren't particularly into her, and are just testing the waters to see if maybe she's worth a bit more of your time. But, I wouldn't have even bothered. She's too old for you, she's not into you, and there are thousands of girls outside your house you could be talking to. Go do that instead of trying ineffectually to flirt with old ladies on the Internet.
[–]huyvanbin 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
I appreciate your reply. I guess my thinking is, since I actually am a "lonely sadsack with nothing better to do," I should at least "own it" and unashamedly be a lonely sadsack.
Unfortunately, most girls my age on OKCupid don't reply to me at all. With the ones who do, the conversation usually starts inane and trails off into nothing. Here's an example (this is a better conversation than average): (11:24:00 pm)Me:hi
(11:24:11 pm)Her:hi
(11:24:21 pm)Me:how are you tonight?
(11:25:14 pm)Her:good! how about you?
(11:25:52 pm)Me:good . . . just watched avatar
(11:25:57 pm)Me:so now I'm all riled up
(11:25:58 pm)Her:very cool
(11:26:00 pm)Her:hahaha
(11:27:02 pm)Me:what are you up to
(11:27:43 pm)Her:just hanging out - winding down from the day
(11:28:42 pm)Me:tired?
(11:28:47 pm)Her:definitely
(11:29:31 pm)Me:have you accomplished anything today
(11:29:46 pm)Her:I went riding
(11:29:58 pm)Her:I designed a new spreadsheet to help my bosses' boss
(11:30:47 pm)Me:riding sounds cool
(11:30:56 pm)Her:it was
(11:30:56 pm)Me:or at least expensive
(11:31:05 pm)Her:both
(11:32:58 pm)Me:so what do you do when you ride? do you go around a track?
(11:41:52 pm)Her:in an arena
So you can see why I would prefer the first conversation I posted to the one above.
EDIT: Also, how do you know that her initial response was a statement of disinterest, and not as you call it a "shit test"?
[–]intjpua 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Also, how do you know that her initial response was a statement of disinterest, and not as you call it a "shit test"?
I think it could have been either (though disinterest seems more likely), and I've covered both in my reply. I got a really strong, "Not interested." vibe from that sentence. Disinterest and shit tests often look similar. In this case, I gave you a response to the shit test portion: Ignore her for a few minutes, come back and laugh off the point of her statement. If it really was just a shit test, then that would have been the way to disarm it. It also probably would have made her a little curious about you. At the very least made her wonder why you're contacting her, if you're already talking to other girls at the same time. Curiosity is the first stage of attraction.
Honestly, though, I don't think this conversation could have ever gone anywhere. She's not into younger guys in this context. Being laconic and non-reactive when she said so would be the only way to overcome it, but I don't particularly think overcoming it would be possible.
As for the other chat...yes, you're really painfully dull. But, this one with the horse girl went slightly better than the one with the old lady. She, at least, isn't constantly telling you, "No, I'm not interested in what you're selling." She, instead, is saying, "Maybe he's OK. I'll give him a chance." Though you're not doing much to make her like you.
I would seriously recommend that you get more excitement in your life. Does your profile cover something really cool that you've done recently? If not, do something really cool as soon as possible, and put it on your profile. Climb a mountain, run in a marathon, act in a play, start a band, build an art car, learn to surf, visit some place exotic or extreme (take pictures), etc. This gives her something to ask you about...this would be an IOI on the Internet (since you can't see her twirl her hair, bite her lip, etc.), and it makes you more interesting.
You need to be qualifying more than praising. In this exchange:
(11:29:31 pm)Me:have you accomplished anything today (11:29:46 pm)Her:I went riding (11:29:58 pm)Her:I designed a new spreadsheet to help my bosses' boss (11:30:47 pm)Me:riding sounds cool
You're too praising. I would have probably said, "What do you ride? Is it something awesome, like elephants or ostriches, or just boring ol' horses like everybody else? ;)"
She's not shit testing you, which is probably a bad thing (shit tests are her trying to disqualify you). But, she's not shutting you down, either.
I would have told a brief funny or heartwarming story about my interaction with horses, at that point in time (I have several true stories in this genre: a horse farting on my friend's head when we were 9, my dog meeting a horse for the first time, the time I rode my sisters horse and he just decided to go his own way and we got lost, my dog rolling in horse poo and having to put her in the car to take her back home for a bath, etc., feel free to steal and embellish these award-winning literary plot-lines). Or, tell a story about spreadsheets if you don't have anything about horses (but, seriously, dude, get out of the damned house more, you need interesting experiences in order to have funny stories to tell).
I would recommend you stop spending so much time online. Get out of the house and talk to real girls. You get attraction points just for having the guts to open a conversation in real life. You actually lose points for opening a conversation online. It's a harsh world, online dating, and the women are outnumbered by men many times over...so, you're competing with a much higher quality of man online, and fighting over the scraps of the lowest quality women. If it's something you do for half an hour after work on Monday or something, that's fine. But, if you're doing it on the weekend, or when the sun it shining outside, you're doing it all wrong.
[–]ArMcK 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Great insight on both your comments. OP was way too needy.
[–]Mouthpiece 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I should at least "own it" and unashamedly be a lonely sadsack.
This is a terrible idea that will keep you a virgin until you die. What, you're not a virgin? Acting like this actually subtracts experience.
[–]intjpua 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Absolute truth.
"owning" being a lonely sadsack is as far away from what works as you can get, and guarantees failure repeatedly and on a scale that is staggering. You not only have to own who you are, you have to be happy with who you are.
Why would any woman want to be with someone who thinks of themselves as pitiful? Would you want to be with a woman who is constantly down on herself and thinks of herself as unlovable and unworthy of being loved? Of course not!
What you have to own is your identity...not your current pitiable state. Own that you're a nerd, if you like playing video games and reading more than football and motorcycles. That's fine. Your loneliness is not your identity, it is merely the state of your life today...change it.
[–]huyvanbin 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
What, you're not a virgin?
Of course I am. I might not be able to take no for an answer, but I can't take yes for an answer either.
[–]huyvanbin 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
Here's another, with a 34 year old who claims to be interested in "hot sex": (11:53:02 pm)Me:mm I would really like hot sex too
(11:56:01 pm)Her:well i see you have a cat
(11:56:11 pm)Me:I do
(11:57:09 pm)Me:is that likely to help?
(12:00:42 am)Me:do you like cats?
(12:08:35 am)Me:are you offended or something? I didn't mean to be offensive, I just was thinking maybe we were both looking for the same thing
(12:26:51 am)Her:im not offended...however i do not have the 1st impression that apparently others have of you
(12:27:22 am)Me:like what kind of first impression?
(12:29:04 am)Her:well i wouldnt say that was the smartest thing to initially say to me
(12:31:06 am)Me:I know, I could be polite, but that never impresses anybody. Maybe if I find the right girl, she will just see me for who I am and not care if I'm saying exactly the right things
(12:32:37 am)Her:well im always impressed w a gentleman
(12:43:38 am)Her:perhaps we could be friends since you've screwed up any chance of anything else. lol
(12:44:03 am)Me:heh, what would we do as friends
(12:44:58 am)Her:well i could break shit and you could fix it
(12:45:15 am)Her:u like that
(12:45:23 am)Me:true
(12:45:27 am)Me:do you have anything broken?
(12:45:51 am)Her:well just my faith in men thanks to you
(12:46:00 am)Her:could u fix that?
(12:46:06 am)Her:lol
(12:46:21 am)Me:I don't know, if it's that easy to break, probably not worth fixing
(12:47:25 am)Her:too daunting a task?
(12:48:28 am)Her:well i will try to come up w some other broken stuff for u ...something nice and easy for u
(12:49:03 am)Me:well, I guess I could take a look at it
(12:49:12 am)Me:maybe epoxy would help?
(12:49:33 am)Her:yeah perhaps
(12:49:54 am)Me:well if you bring it over I could take a look
(12:51:21 am)Her:is that stuff toxic?
(12:51:47 am)Me:epoxy? it's not very nice, but once it dries it's pretty inert
(12:51:59 am)Me:if your faith in men doesn't get exposed to water much, we could just use elmers glue
(12:52:27 am)Her:didnt you even read my profile?
(12:52:42 am)Me:about the water, you mean?
(12:53:14 am)Her:you know sea is also a three letter word
(12:53:27 am)Me:I like the sea
(12:53:42 am)Me:I was sailing in the islands on sunday :)
(12:54:10 am)Her:yeah so clearly my point is that the elmers glue isnt going to work
(12:54:16 am)Me:yeah I got it
(12:54:27 am)Her:lol
(12:54:35 am)Her:no u didnt
(12:54:46 am)Me:sure I did, I knew you like the water
(12:54:47 am)Her:what islands?
(12:54:56 am)Me:I just like making jokes
(12:55:02 am)Me:you know, the harbor islands
(12:55:06 am)Me:I'm taking a sailing class
(12:55:38 am)Her:that's cool...until when?
(12:55:42 am)Her:it's getting cold
(12:55:47 am)Me:next week is the last class
(12:56:00 am)Her:i went sailing in the harbor this summer
(12:56:09 am)Me:there you go
(12:56:14 am)Her:i loved iy
(12:56:18 am)Her:it
(12:57:02 am)Me:yeah it's nice
(12:57:32 am)Me:we anchored so that made me realize I could anchor overnight and it would be like camping
(12:58:45 am)Her:camping out on the ocean! mmmmm
(12:59:36 am)Her:well im off to watch the highly acclaimed movie "the back-up plan"
(12:59:48 am)Her:nite
(12:59:51 am)Me:haven't heard of it but enjoy
(1:00:04 am)Me:let me know when you want me to fix your faith in men
(1:00:08 am)Her:i thikn you'd really like it
(1:00:19 am)Me:maybe I'll screw it together :)
(1:01:40 am)Her:just as long as you do complete work and dont charge by the hour
(1:01:51 am)Me:fair enough
(1:02:09 am)Me:thursday?
(1:04:01 am)Her:im a "not now" for seeing you....one im going to france and logistically cant and 2 im not compelled to do so
(1:04:58 am)Me:I think that's not what you said 5 minutes ago
(1:06:29 am)Her:so you thought i was really going to go over to your place so you could fix my faith in men with epoxy?
(1:06:41 am)Her:really?
(1:07:30 am)Me:you obviously want something
(1:08:06 am)Her:im not denying that
(1:17:35 am)Me:well, enjoy your movie
(1:17:38 am)Me:good night
[–]AveofSpades 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Go talk to real women in real life.
[–]intjpua 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
At this point, I think maybe you're just fucking around. If you didn't have a huge history of comments here at reddit and if I didn't recognize your name, I would think you're trolling us.
You seriously opened a conversation with a girl you don't know with, "mm I would really like hot sex too"?
This conversation was utterly dead from the get go, and had nowhere to go, but, she, the kind-hearted soul that she clearly is (seriously, she's impressively nice about the whole thing), continues speaking to you as though you might surprise her with something good.
The one redeeming characteristic of this conversation is probably this:
(12:45:27 am)Me:do you have anything broken? (12:45:51 am)Her:well just my faith in men thanks to you (12:46:00 am)Her:could u fix that? (12:46:06 am)Her:lol (12:46:21 am)Me:I don't know, if it's that easy to break, probably not worth fixing
I would have followed up with, "Maybe you should try women. They're a bit catty, but they have nicer shoes." (Heaven forbid I ever find myself in this much of a conversational pickle, though.)
You spend a lot of time trying to talk her into liking you, which is never going to work. Not ever. Not once in the history of the world has a man begged and pleaded his way into being liked by a woman.
(11:56:01 pm)Her:well i see you have a cat (11:56:11 pm)Me:I do (11:57:09 pm)Me:is that likely to help? (12:00:42 am)Me:do you like cats? (12:08:35 am)Me:are you offended or something? I didn't mean to be offensive, I just was thinking maybe we were both looking for the same thing
This is the worst part of the conversation (aside from the horrible opener), and kept it going in the train wreck direction rather than recovering and getting back onto the rails. Do you know why it's so bad?
[–]huyvanbin 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Well, there has been a theme lately on reddit that if you want to have sex with someone, just ask. Ordinarily I would consider this a bad idea, but I thought I would try it. With strangers on the internet, since trying it on coworkers would get me in trouble, and I don't have any other women to try it on.
Also, while I agree that directly referring to "hot sex" in someone's profile is a stupid idea, I've never been totally comfortable with ignoring it either. I remember that in The Game, Neil relates a conversation where he is talking to a woman and she says something blatantly sexual, and he just responds with "respect." He then explains that it's a test where if you take the bait you come off as a perv, and if you don't you come off as a prude, so you have to say something neutral like "respect." But I haven't figured out how to do that with statements in peoples' OkCupid profiles.
As I see it, when she said "well i see you have a cat," she was basically saying, "Why don't you go have hot sex with your cat if you want it so badly." At this point, I didn't see any point in pretending to have any self-respect, because she was obviously done with me. I know there is a rule that you never apologize or ask someone if they're offended, because by doing so, you concede that what you've said is offensive. However as you see, she hadn't answered for 8 minutes, and I just wanted to keep the conversation going.
But the thing I don't get is, why after a 10-minute pause in the conversation, she says "perhaps we could be friends since you've screwed up any chance of anything else. lol"? If she really isn't interested, why do that? And then why say at the end that she's not going to meet me?
[–]intjpua 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
Google Apocalypse Opener for the right way to ask a woman you just met for sex.
But, be prepared for the fact that you' may need to open ten or more girls to get a bite of any sort. Depending on your looks and confidence level, you may find that the number of actual same day lays from this technique is anywhere from 1%-20% of women you open, and probably two or three times that many will continue the conversation, while not being willing to have sex with you that day. Extremely direct game like this is more likely to generate rejection by a very large margin than indirect game.
Also realize that you never get attraction points for the approach online. All that automatic attraction you get from being bold enough to walk up to a strange woman and ask her to sleep with you that day doesn't happen when you do the same thing online. If you're really good looking in your profile, and you sound awesome, you might do OK, anyway. You generally start from zero attraction online, and you have to build up. Which is why extremely direct game online is a rough path to follow.
But I haven't figured out how to do that with statements in peoples' OkCupid profiles.
You leave it alone, until you've got some attraction. Then you can get a little bit flirty and sexy. But, you shouldn't get really into sex talk until you're talking in person, because, again, you aren't building attraction by going there online; it's not bold to say naughty things online.
As I see it, when she said "well i see you have a cat," she was basically saying, "Why don't you go have hot sex with your cat if you want it so badly."
I think you may have misinterpreted her comment. I think it was more her desperately trying to turn the conversation to more sane subjects. I guess you must look pretty good in your profile for her to even bother. But, as far as I can tell, she's trying to save the conversation, though she gives up when you roll over so easily on everything. Shit tests galore in this conversation, which is a good thing, if you aren't failing them all.
At this point, I didn't see any point in pretending to have any self-respect, because she was obviously done with me.
You always need self-respect. No matter how badly the interaction is going, self-respect is all you ever have. When you give that up, you've really lost, and not just that one girl. You're losing a little bit of your mojo when you do shit like that. Don't ever do it again.
Bored, and a little cruel, though I suspect she's also trying to help you do better next time. Honestly, she really does seem like a nice person, in general, though you push the limits of what nice girls will put up with.
Here's the thing: If you're going to open the conversation really aggressively, you cannot roll over the moment she snaps at you in return. If you're playing aggressive direct game, which is what you're always playing when you start the conversation with the equivalent of "I want to fuck you", you hold the goddamn line! You go in this direct, you don't start apologizing the moment she says anything slightly contrary. Your opener was aggressive in all kinds of ways, and then your follow ups were that of a to-the-bone wimp. She pushed your buttons and you danced like a monkey.
I'm not suggesting aggressive game is a good choice in this context, but if you're going to play it, you really need to own it.
After she made it clear being that aggressive wasn't going to fly, you should have said, "OK" and changed the subject (and not let her change it for you). Or just laughed at the cat comment, and changed the subject.
I'm going to repeat my suggestion that you get out into the real world for a while, and forget online stuff. And I'm going to take it a bit further: Your totally miscalibrated right now, and getting some real face time with real people, especially real women, would help. Take some classes of some sort or join a meetup, that'll get you into the company of women. Don't even make an effort to flirt with them. Just get used to being around women. Make friends with them. Don't fall in love with them or put them on a pedestal. Just get used to them existing.
Oh, and yes, apologizing is usually bad. But you messed up even before that. "I do. Is that likely to help?" is you accepting her "frame", to use PUA speak, and accepting that you need help to attract her. If you can't bring yourself to just completely ignore what she said and change the subject to something else off the wall, then you could respond with something ridiculous that the cat did that day. "OMG, Snuggles is awesome, but ate a cricket today, it was absolutely disgusting. And I think it's bad luck or something. You're Chinese, right? Doesn't that mean my house will be cursed for seven years or something?" (This is only good if she's obviously not Chinese.)
You keep thinking you can save these conversations by being extra nice after making little faux paus, when, in fact, you're breaking them even further. When you offend, own it, and laugh it off. She's the weird one for being so easy to upset.
[–]huyvanbin 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Don't even make an effort to flirt with them. Just get used to being around women. Make friends with them. Don't fall in love with them or put them on a pedestal. Just get used to them existing.
Easy for you to say.
When I'm around women in real life, all I see is the happy, tall, charming, or merely normal people and how they effortlessly interact with women while when I try, it always seems like I'm only pretending. Talking to someone I'm attracted to always feels like a hail mary pass, and I can see right away that while people are usually polite, I'm basically nothing to them.
I think that if most people found me dead in a ditch somewhere, they would spit on my corpse, not out of contempt, but merely to have a convenient spot for their spit to land.
I can't stand how people seem to be effortlessly building connections while I am doing my best just to make myself heard. I think about how even if I magically fixed myself, I would still be decades behind other people. It would take me years to catch up to most peoples' numbers of conquests.
There have been four times when I came to parties in costume (i.e. Halloween and New Years) and at those times, everything was completely reversed. Usually I come to a party and walk around aimlessly, unable to start any conversations that last more than a few lines. But these times, girls were rubbing against me, trying to kiss me, actually noticing me. And I realize that for a lot of people, it must be like that all the time. But I can't walk around in costume all the time, and besides, it wouldn't be "me."
So that is why I talk to people online. I don't get all this intense feeling of rejection. Sometimes, the conversations are even positive.
You will no doubt draw the conclusion that I am deranged. Well, at least I recognize it, and I can put it into words. I'm afraid that as distasteful as people may find what I've said, I haven't found how to fix myself, and I can't stop existing to satisfy them, as much as I wish I could.
[–]intjpua 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Ah, now we get to the heart of the matter. You're depressed. If you've felt this way for a long time, you need medication.
It can definitely help fix these feelings of inadequacy, which are what is holding you back more than anything else.
Note also that you're not alone. It's not magically easy for everyone (though I suppose it is for some people, it never has come easily for me). Most of us here in seddit have struggled with our interactions with people.
But, seriously, the best thing you can do for yourself is to get some professional help for your depression. Fix that, and a lot of other problems will become much more manageable.
[–]huyvanbin 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I think you've been misinformed. Even if I were depressed (and nobody thinks I have true clinical depression), there is no magic cure for it. Medications work on some people, but they never worked on me (I haven't tried the nastier ones with pages of side-effects, though).
Generally, the advice for depressed people is a lot like the advice for AFCs: do more exercise, and try to recalibrate your thinking to feel better about yourself (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy). Though there was a recent study indicating that there is no difference in effectiveness between CBT and any other type of talk therapy.
Anyway, people who are good enough can get laid even when they're depressed. I can't find it now, but there was an interview with David Foster Wallace about how he was going through an extra-dark period of his life and it was, he said, the only time he ever went to bars and found girls to go home with. So apparently, being happy and self-assured is not a prerequisite.
[–]intjpua 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Sorry to hear that. But, I'm glad you've looked into it. Two people in my life have severe depression and medication helped both of them (Celexa in one case and Zoloft in another, I believe). It took them both several iterations to find one that worked. Interestingly, the gene sequencing that 23 And Me does can tell you whether you're genetically pre-disposed to respond to many types of drugs including various anti-depressants. You might check that out.
And get more sun. So, get out of the house more, which is definitely good for your ability to meet and attract women.
I can't find it now, but there was an interview with David Foster Wallace about how he was going through an extra-dark period of his life and it was, he said, the only time he ever went to bars and found girls to go home with. So apparently, being happy and self-assured is not a prerequisite.
I'm pretty sure he was pretty self-assured when picking up women. Have you read Infinite Jest? He's definitely got a solid grasp of asshole game (or at least, laconic game). I'm guessing he was the opposite of "try-hard" when it came to women, and that's pretty damned important. Being try-hard is absolutely attraction-killing.
[–]aruki1 point 15 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Ok, don't prefer this convo to the other one. This woman will be a nightmare lover. Granted, you did open with an insult "Hey, I think you are so slutty as to sleep with internet stranger because they suggested it." I think such an opener is only really meant for real life, and even then you will have opened her earlier by looking in her eyes and smiling, and then by catching her attention as you approach her. The walk up can be really important. Pick something to communicate to her by your walk (the body language in the walk).
Anyways, this convo is full of games, the bad kind. Your other convo was just banal. Really focus on intjupua's comments. They are quite good.
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[–]aruki1 point [recovered] | Copy Link