I know most people on this sub are hardly what anyone would call as "traditional", but I wanted to discuss this subject to better understand men's role in their society throughout the eons, as the common perception of gender discussions is the idea that men have lived care-free at women's expense for most of human history. I also want to shed light on what beleieve is false hope that's touted to many young men: conservatives like Jordan Peterson are famous for touting "man up and be a good father!"

Where does the harm from that kind of discourse come?

This quote by Warren Farrell offers us tremendous insight:

If taking on a wife for life in an institution called marriage were a sign of male privilege, why did “husband” derive from the Germanic “house” and the Old Norse for “bound” or “bondage”?68 Why did it also come from words meaning “a male kept for breeding,” “one who tills the soil,” and “the male of the pair of lower animals.”69 Conversely, if marriage were as awful for women as many feminists claim, why is it the centerpiece of female fantasies in myths and legends of the past, or romance novels and soap operas of the present? Spartan boys who were deprived of their families were deprived, not privileged. Boys deprived of women’s love until they risked their lives at work or war were also deprived—or dead. Training boys to kill boys was considered moral when it led to survival, immoral only when it threatened survival. In these respects, “patriarchy” created male deprivation and male death, not male privilege.

When it comes to traditionalists, there are often two camps of men: the first are the misogynists who (like feminists) seem to believe that men dominated women throughout all human history, but unlike feminists they actually want that power dynamic to return. Ignoring the fact that their ideas are historically inaccurate, their morality if wicked and shouldn't be taken seriously.

The second group of traditionalists are seeking a revival of the family dynamic and traditional values: "man-up, marry a woman (they're all moraly superior anyway so why bother vetting), get 5 kids, and live on a homestead."

These types of conservatives are often very detached from reality, and their optimism with regards to traditional male roles are an attempt to recapture the genie in a bottle. Perhaps playing hero wold have been beneficial for a male living in a small village where recognition for heroism was duly given. But is it not foolish to encourage selfness and toughness amongst males in a selfish neoliberal world?

The great fallacy of traditionalism is that it tries to mirror an action that our ancestors had to do; it wasn't a choice for them to act in a certain way, the limited resources meant that life constrained them to a specific act. And for us to have the benefit of hindsight would create a different set of environment for us relative to what our ancestors did with their tradition.

For instance, if 1800th century Russian aristocrats sent their children to French schools, and the current oligarchy of Russia do that as well with their kids; it would be fallacious to call that a "tradition", it simply works for them as France often yields a better education system. Thus, the danger of traditionalism lies in the fact that we are tempted to emulate a past generation that had no choice but to act in a certain way.

We'd have to define "masculinity" or "traditions" here. Traditional expressions of masculinity can include positive message such as self-protection, loyalty to family, and refusing to succumb to a tyrannical authority. However traditionalism can also extend to more toxic grounds such as nationalism, militarism, selflessness and other harmful doctrines.

Furthermore, when we analyze traditional masculinity holistically, we can see specific elements that not only aren't harmful but actually beneficial.

The problem here is can be one of the two: people see a beneficial endeavor that can be linked to traditionalism; they either reject it on the basis of it being "traditional", or welcome it alongside all the other toxic traditional elements.

In my opinion, if cultural norms as such career ambition, moderate selfishness, male-only spaces, defiance towards misandry are viewed as "traditional", then I would simply cast away that label and choose to view these norms as objectively good and worthy of upholding not due to a pressure to maintain a lineage but to simply enjoy them.

I know this is a leftwing sub, but we must keep in mind that we still live in a neoliberal society, and the necessity of being masculine and tough often come as just that: a necessity rather than as a cultural choice.

With regards to feminism and progressive culture (not all progressiveness is good, progress could happen in the wrong direction), I honestly do not see any goodness in it, especially concerning its attitudes towards men. While old feminism in the early 20th century was concerned with justice and fairness, today's feminism is supremacy and vengeance.