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Need some help with a debate.

Vrael22 · 2013-03-02T09:25:34+00:00

I recently got in a debate with someone about Men's Rights v. Women's rights v. Egalitarianism. She stated that men are naturally more agressive...

Vrael22

March 2, 2013

0 upvotes

/r/MensRights

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Title	Need some help with a debate.
Author	Vrael22
Upvotes	0
Comments	25
Date	March 2, 2013 9:25 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/19ilj3/need-some-help-with-a-debate/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/need-some-help-with-a-debate.1607338 https://theredarchive.com/post/1607338

Comments

[–]electricfistula5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I know that this is false

Uh, what? How can you something without knowing the evidence for it?

Very likely men are more aggressive than women. For example, wikipedia can offer evidence here

In 2004, males were almost 10 times more likely than females to commit murder, including rape-homicides.

What could you possibly mean by "men aren't more aggressive than women" if you don't mean "men are less likely to commit violent crimes than women"?

There are scientific reasons in addition to sociological ones to suspect that men will be more aggressive than women. Testosterone is found more commonly in males than females. Scientific studies have found that testosterone tends to correlate with aggression in primates.

It strikes me as a pretty ludicrous claim that men aren't, on average, more aggressive than women.

[–]chaosord2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]electricfistula1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]chaosord1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm just against using bad stats. Now we get to the fun part, what percent of males will do those acts in their life times? Where is it taking place? Reasons behind it? Are they doing on their own behalf or someone else's?

Your point is, men are more violent than women. To which I reply, it depends. Unless to break it down further, its just man hating.

Also, the numbers for female violent offenders are under-reported. More often than not, females are given lighter sentences, if not let off the hook all together, than males for the same crime. I have had a run in with this. After getting jumped by a female and her boyfriend, she was packing a hammer, I was told by the police that if I pressed charges I would be the one going to jail. I told the officer I was still going to press charges. The cop just left. Spent the next few weeks homeless. Funny thing is I, a male, never throw a single punch back in self defense. Kind of throws your claim of men are more violent right out the window.

[–]electricfistula2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm just against using bad stats

Which of the stats do you think are bad? True or false, men commit more...

Robbery
Assault
Battery
Rape
Murder

If you think the answer is "false" for any of these, let me know and I'll dig up better stats for you. If you agree that the answer is "true" for each of these, then what the hell are you talking about?

what percent of males will do those acts in their life times?

This is not relevant. The question is are men more aggressive by nature than women. There are roughly equal numbers of men and women and men are committing way more violent crimes. Thus, the proportion of men who commit violent crime is simply not important. You could compare it to the proportion of women who commit violent crime, I guess - but that is in essence what we are doing when we compare which gender commits the most crime.

Are they doing on their own behalf or someone else's?

Yes. A clever investigation will no doubt confirm that all violence perpetrated by men was done at the behest of some harpy behind the scenes...

Your point is, men are more violent than women. To which I reply, it depends.

No, it really doesn't depend. We have the stats on violent crime. Men offend way more than women.

Unless to break it down further, its just man hating.

I don't hate men - but I'm not retarded either. And I would have to be retarded to ignore the obvious and common sense conclusion that men are more aggressive than women. Since you'll have trouble understanding the subtlety here (see below), let me be more clear, I'm calling you retarded.

Also, the numbers for female violent offenders are under-reported.

Did your magic mirror tell you this? Do you have a source? How could you possibly know the extent to which they are being under reported? Is there some place where people can report the crimes that were otherwise unreported?

More often than not, females are given lighter sentences, if not let off the hook all together, than males for the same crime.

Citation needed.

I was told by the police that if I pressed charges I would be the one going to jail.

This doesn't make sense for a number of reasons. Primarily though, the fact that you were jumped by one person of each gender gives the lie to your argument. True, in your story a woman was released from criminal charges, but so was a man!

I told the officer I was still going to press charges. The cop just left.

It sounds a lot like this never happened...

Spent the next few weeks homeless

Okay

Funny thing is I, a male, never throw a single punch back in self defense

Okay, getting off topic - but walk me through what you think happened. You are attacked by two people, one of whom is wielding a hammer. By way of never throwing punches, you stave off your attackers long enough for the police to arrive. At which point the cop threatens you with jail and then leaves. Then you become homeless?

Kind of throws your claim of men are more violent right out the window.

It really doesn't. I never said that all men are more violent than all women. I said that men are more violent than women. You have one data point (though it is probably false) where a woman is more violent than you. Congratulations, that means almost nothing even if it were true. There are still way more cases where men commit violent crimes than cases where women do. You have just given an example of one case where a woman committed a violent crime.

[–]chaosord1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I like how you side step my points and launch these really thinly veiled personal attacks. Point 1) The numbers we have to work with are inaccurate. Point 2) They do not tell the whole story. (A man beats someone to death to save the life of someone else. Its a war zone. Ect..) Point 3) By only stating only the percent and not the whole figure you leave out key info. (90% of all crime is done by men. Only 10 crimes. Only 5 men committing the crime.) Point 4) Without stating the percent of the male population which commits violent crime you are leaving out key info. (See point 3.) Point 5) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence-length-gender-gap_n_1874742.html Point 6) Aggression does not equal violence.

Also off topic, I screamed my head off, tried my best to cover up, and I fucking ran and hid when I got the chance. The cops found me passed out on a hill a few block away.

[–]electricfistula1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I like how you side step my points

You have no points.

launch these really thinly veiled personal attacks

The personal attacks aren't "thinly veiled". I called you a retard in the previous post. There is no veil there.

The numbers we have to work with are inaccurate

Prove it. You can't just say that and expect me to take it seriously.

They do not tell the whole story. (A man beats someone to death to save the life of someone else. Its a war zone

The stats are violent crimes! War is excluded as is any kind of justified homicide.

By only stating only the percent and not the whole figure you leave out key info. (90% of all crime is done by men. Only 10 crimes. Only 5 men committing the crime.)

Not relevant at all. All that is relevant is if more men are committing violent actions than women. And they are.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence-length-gender-gap_n_1874742.html

This isn't evidence of anything. I have been talking about instances of crimes committed by men versus crimes committed by women, not the inmate population of each genders. Okay, women get lighter sentences than men - so what?

Aggression does not equal violence.

Violent crime is a pretty good evidence of aggression.

[–]chaosord1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]electricfistula1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spokewrencher1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]electricfistula2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]electricfistula1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

To be clear, it doesn't matter what you think. You aren't special, your unsubstantiated opinions don't count as evidence at all. Men commit more violent crimes - more murder, more assault, more robbery, more battery, more rape.

You've suggested that this might be caused by society - and indeed, it might be. You don't have evidence that it is caused by society though. An example of this evidence would be something like pointing out a society where women commit more violent crimes than men. Can you name such a society?

I have given evidence that this is biological. I have pointed out that men have more testosterone than women and that testosterone is linked to aggression in primates. You have failed to rebut this point by claiming that it is "competitiveness" and not "aggression" that is increased by testosterone. This is a failure on your part because you are again relying on nothing more than your unsupported and inexpert opinion on the matter, even when your opinion is directly refuted by the scientific paper I already cited. Testosterone is linked to aggression in that paper.

This is a question about the world. Are men naturally more aggressive than women? What that means is that there is an objectively true answer to the question. That answer is reached by logic and evidence as I have presented. It is not reached by your stubborn, intellectually dishonest and insensible repetition of the premise you wish were true but have no evidence to support.

In sum, you are wrong. You are wrong about the thesis, men are more aggressive than women by nature and you are wrong about the "meta-thesis". That is, the way you are approaching the argument is wrong. Your opinion means nothing, your reasoning is flawed and you have no evidence. If you point to domestic violence claims as your evidence - fine, but then you must admit to the far greater evidence that is offered by rape, murder, robbery and assault statistics and also all the statistics I can find for other cultures where domestic violence is perpetrated primarily by men.

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]electricfistula1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You obviously must have never been taught that correlation does not equal causation

What? I don't think you really know what those words mean.

Aggression is causally linked to violent crimes. Being aggressive means that you are more likely to commit more violence. The stats I showed above indicate that men commit more violence. By definition that is direct evidence of men being more aggressive than women. I also showed a possible biological cause for this when I showed that men have more testosterone than women and that testosterone CAUSES aggression in primates.

Your evidence is no less personal opinion than my evidence.

My evidence is statistical information on crimes committed in the United States and a scientific paper. That isn't personal at all. You, on the other hand, have no evidence beyond your own opinion. I guess you are claiming that the "women commit more domestic violence than men" thing is your evidence? No, that can't be right, because you also think:

Crime statistics prove nothing

So, I'm really not sure what you could mean. Of course, since crime statistics are revealing here - all I need to do to dismiss your domestic violence claim is point to the far greater numbers of men who commit violent crimes in general.

because I doubt you would read them anyway

I think you're projecting here. I have read everything relevant to the discussion. I have brought in legitimate and relevant outside sources. I am making a good faith and intellectually honest approach to this debate.

You have made up your mind that men are inherently evil.

I don't think I ever said that. What I have said, and supported by evidence, is that men are more aggressive than women.

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Okay, I am in front of an actual computer this time, so I can provide links.

We will start off simple: Wikipedia

Many studies have also been done on the relationship between more general aggressive behavior/feelings and testosterone. About half the studies have found a relationship and about half no relationship. SOURCE

This shows that it is hardly conclusive that testosterone is directly linked to aggressive behavior. This study which can be found through the link in the sideboard as I said earlier, outlines how women are more likely to receive lesser sentences for the same crimes.

Of course, to receive lesser sentences, women have to be charged with a crime in the first place. Of course finding statistics for crimes that aren't reported is tricky. Check out this video of how people react to male and female relationship violence.

In the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, look at table 4.1 and 4.2. The 12 month incidence for intimate partner violence victimization is actually higher in men and the lifetime incidence is comparable.

Straus 2011 found that intimate partner violence (IPV) is more likely to be mutual or female initiated than male initiated. Women were half again as likely to perpetrate serious violence. You can read more here.

So as I said before, crime statistics cannot be trusted as evidence that men are more aggressive because women that commit violence are less likely to be reported, women are less likely to be prosecuted, and if prosecuted women are more likely to receive a lesser sentence.

The mere idea that men are more aggressive perpetuates the concept of men as constant aggressors and women as constant victims. Neither is true.

[–]Vrael221 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]electricfistula1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Nomenimion1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Vrael221 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]themountaingoat1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well men aren't the most aggressive in relationships, so that argument is bunk. Men actually are less likely to hit a partner than a general person who does the same thing.

Men are aggressive and more violent in certain ways, but men also do more of many positive things, like being the majority of scientists, and doing most of the dirty and dangerous work that society requires to function. The current idea is to write off all the positive things that men do as a result of discrimination and yet none of the negative things that they do. Either you can believe that men and women are the same, and the fact that men do more good and more bad things is a result of discrimination, or you can admit that men and women are different and men and women do different amounts of good and bad things.

The ways in which women influence both positive and negative things are also often more indirect. Feminists often demand that we value these more indirect things when they support positive things (like by saying behind every successful man is a supporting woman), but not the role women play in supporting things like violence, through rewarding and being attracted to those men who do it, or even through requesting it be done, or just playing the victim and manipulating men into violence on their behalf.

[–]Vrael221 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]themountaingoat1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]rightsbot0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link