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[–]midnightvulpine5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
If you think women don't care about marriage, you might want to take a glance at the lucrative business in marriage and the multiple shows on TV about it in various ways.
Yes, Marriage used to be a duty. Is that a good thing to you? That people were pressured to do things they might not have wanted to do, just because they didn't want to be ostracized and shunned socially? I assume then it would be great if your parents pressured you to marry someone at a time you weren't ready, who you had no personal interest in?
I'd rather lean towards the side of freedom myself. It's not perfect, but it's better than having other people dictate your life.
[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Women care about weddings
[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago* (38 children) | Copy Link
Girls were shamed into marriage, which might mean a girl would marry a guy she didn't even find attractive.
Lest we not forget, society shamed men into marriage too. If a man made the mistake of poking a girl he was barely attracted to just to get his rocks off and was discovered, he'd be shamed and/or forced to marry her. And god forbid he knocked her up! I sincerely doubt many men would prefer that to be their reality today.
But this was for the good of society
Meh. Debatable.
So, they only date guys they are sexually attracted to.
Yes. How dare they! How dare women have the gall to have sex with men they find attractive. Surely they'd be much better off doling out unenthusiastic duty sex to their helpmates instead....
[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You know, when I grew up I got instilled with the idea that arranged marriages are the worst thing ever - that people who were married off were automatically miserable because they couldn't choose; while people who picked their own partner were automatically joyful and happy in their relationship (later I found out that it wasn't that easy).
The problem with the romance-oriented bluepilled twu wuvTM -narrative is that it didn't really fare that much better because it also made a promise it can't keep - and this was because it wanted to cover all bases. On the one hand that everyone dates (and marries) for love, but on the other that "true love" is sublime (dating someone "for personality"), permanent ("eternal love"), performance-independent (taking someone "as they are") and equalist ("there's someone for everybody").
However, the problem with "love" is that at the end of the day, it's little more than raw visceral desire; especially when you're younger. And what provokes that desire? Hotness. Not goodness, not compatibility, not communication, not being treated well by the partner. These are all just nice-to-haves that ultimately take a backseat behind hotness.
And the consequence is that people enter their dating life with the expectation that they get their perfect partner and then are disappointed when it turns out that relationships are always work, that love does not conquer all, or that their league is lower than they're willing and able to deal with. This was the promise of the true love-narrative, and apparently enough people fell for it and ended up disappointed, because otherwise the amount of separations wouldn't be that huge. Most people are average who can only attract average partners; and they expect what is ultimately too much. Say what you want about arranged marriages, but I'd wager that the expectations are a lot lower.
[–]wanderer19760 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (36 children) | Copy Link
Yet, for much of human history, women had no say in their marriage partners and little say in their sexual partners. Men were expected to provide for their families. Both were expected to willingly and cheerfully fulfill their responsibilities to each other.
Outside of the west, in more traditional societies this is still mostly the case. The secret is that this also works well. I am actually in an arranged marriage though we met and agreed to it before it was decided.
[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (35 children) | Copy Link
The secret is that this also works well
Does it though? Does it really "work well"? Or are people just complacent after being conditioned to accept that such a fate is their lot in life? Because I see a lot of men in more "traditional" countries blowing their brains out, blowing themselves up or swinging from trees in a forest somewhere.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
Seriously it's crazy these people look at the past with such rose tinted glasses. If you really want traditionalism you can go live in a Muslim country, but they never will because they can see the reality of it and they know they'd hate it. The traditionalist past of this society is no different. Neither men or women had much freedom and spent a lot of time miserable.
The current level of freedom we have is a good thing and anyone who genuinely didn't agree would grow some balls and move to Iran.
[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
The west has a tradition. Its not Islam.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Traditional Christian and Islamic lifestyles have a lot of similarities.
[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
no they do not, this is flat out false
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
What're the differences? As far the topic of discussion on PPD goes (marriage, sex, etc) they seem very similar to me. Pressure to marry and have a family at a young age and a large amount of influence from your parents and looking down on casual sex are strong elements of both.
[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
that was all human marriage since the dawn of time. christian western marriage is chivalric. the entire code of chivalry was based in christianity. there is no such developmnet in Islam. please stop giving me an aspergers headache, i dont want to die
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
that was all human marriage since the dawn of time.
That's exactly my point though. Traditionalism from pretty much every culture shares the same kind of views on how marriage should work.
[–]wub1234-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I don't think we stoned people to death in the 1950s before the sexual revolution. I don't think women were forced to cover up everything apart from their eyes. I don't think women had virtually no legal rights, etc, etc, etc. You cannot really compare society in the Western world in immediate pre-sexual revolution period to Saudi Arabia, for example.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
We did publicly hang people until 1964 in the UK, that's pretty much the same thing.
And of course further back in history women were expected to cover up and had fewer legal rights, what are you on about?
[–]wub1234-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Of course women had less legal rights in the past, but that was changing and indeed had changed. If you look at the period that immediately preceded the sexual revolution in the 60s, the society in the West bore absolutely no resemblance to an Islamic society. Not everything was perfect by any means, but it was more functional than the society we live in today. The sexual revolution has led to more liberty, but a more dysfunctional society.
If you look at the period that immediately preceded the sexual revolution
You're focusing on a very specific period so you can commit the same fallacy and look at the past through rose tinted glasses.
Look at society a few decades before the sexual revolution. The values of that society are not at all dissimilar to the traditional Islamic societies of today. You're expected to get married and have kids whether you want to or not and your parents probably have more say in it than you. My dad came from that exact kind of upbringing and he was very happy to be free of it even though his family stopped talking to him afterwards.
it was more functional than the society we live in today
Why? You can't just make a statement like this without explaining your reasoning.
[–]wub1234-3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Well, I could explain at length, there are many books on the subject, tonnes of stuff on the 'net, I have written about it. But you're welcome to your opinion. I enjoy the liberty of living in this society, but there is quite a lot of evidence that we're collectively less happy than when there were closer-knit communities.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Them rose tinted glasses seem to be be working really well.
[–]wanderer1976-3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link
If you want to talk suicide rates, it is happening in the west as well. If the suicide rate among men, especially divorced men, in the US was occurring to women, it would be considered a national crisis and talked about nightly in hushed tones on national news.
Obviously, I am married into a family that prefers arranged marriage, with my wife and I being a kind of outlier. We have some rather interesting conversations with members of her family every now and again.
Attraction, properly called is lust, there is a reason they say the heart is a terrible leader. It has no value, and it is often poorly acted upon due to the "if it feels good, then it is good" culture that has taken root in the west. Love is both an action and a choice, not a feeling. People that wake up and choose to love who they are with and act on it are, generally, going to be happy. This of course excludes poor souls who have partners that do not choose the same, and I don't think someone should be miserable, understand.
Anyway, finding someone who is worthy of being chosen to love and who chooses to love you is probably the biggest secret to happiness that I have ever discovered.
[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
This sounds very much like an Asain/Indian outlook.
[–]wanderer1976-3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
I don't think so, but I will concede that I may be influenced by the time I spend among my wife's family.
Look at the west now. Women, and men but the statistic for men has been more static, have been encouraged to follow their hearts since the 1960s, and, according to every study, it's making them miserable. They complain about there not being any good men and then reward the dogs with affection and sex. They want kids, but don't want anything to interfere with their chosen career. Don't get me wrong, choice is nice, but it means that you do have to make a choice and stick to it. Hopefully, you choose well.
[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
and, according to every study, it's making them miserable
I'm honestly still on the fence as to whether this is "making them miserable" OR if the change in times has merely made them more willing to openly admit/express their misery. Because from what I understand, there were a great many women who were deeply unhappy but knew better than to ever say as much publicly since to admit to such a thing would be akin to declaring yourself (your husband and your family) a failure. It was simply not the done thing.
[–]wanderer1976-2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If that were the single most important factor, then reasonably the line would have leveled off some where near the men's historic levels. It simply didn't. That means there are other factors to consider and the best research available indicates that the reasons I cited are important factors.
[–]RedManBearPig 0 points0 points0 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Dogs, is that what we are now? Is that what they call assertive, dominant men now?
That's a very interesting view you have there, confusing the dog trainer with the dog.
[–]wanderer19761 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
LOL, a male dog will run around and fuck any bitch that will let him. That describes a lot of so-called assertive, dominant men. They run around and act like whatever they think will get their dick wet. That is what makes them dogs.
Assertive and dominant are fine, but those are hardly the two most important traits to even consider.
[–]RedManBearPig 2 points2 points2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
LOL, a male dog will run around and fuck any bitch that will let him.
This is exactly how all the sex happens outside of your world. Flawless conclusion.
You tell me which traits are the most important ones too consider then.
[–]wanderer1976-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Dogs aren't completely natural creatures. They are wolves modified by humans to serve us. In the wild, only the alpha male and the alpha female of a wolf pack are allowed to breed.
As to what traits I consider to actually be important, many of them have been perverted in modern culture to things that they are not: Strength. Raw physical power and ability. If he doesn't have the ability to provide for and protect the people that matter to him, then he doesn't count for much.
Courage. Strength without courage is pointless. He needs to bring the same courage when facing a dangerous predator or an enemy's spear to his home to be able to do the right thing.
Honor. His people, whoever they are, need to know he has their back, and he needs to know they have his. Straight out, he will defend his reputation.
Mastery. He needs to be the master of himself and his emotions. He also needs to be a master of as many skills as he can possibly learn.
You can say that "assertive" and "dominant" cover these but they don't. You can say it takes courage to approach a woman, but you would be overstating your case. You can say it takes "mastery" to be dominant, but then you tell guys to roll with an IDGAF attitude that merely poorly masks their insecurities. Like, I said, it's little better than dogs.
Women weren't a problem for me. After my divorce, I could have women at will. The problem for me became finding a high quality woman that would be suitable for marriage.
[–]mashakosMastered Himself, Mastered The Pussy1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
since you believe that women "reward" men by sex:
They complain about there not being any good men and then reward the dogs with affection and sex.
It appears that you are the dog in this conversation. Your family has trained you well, good doggy.
[–]wanderer1976-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
LOL! Ok, tell me what do women have that I can't get somewhere else? It isn't that I don't value friendship and companionship, but that isn't something exclusive to women.
[–]Xemnas810 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Ohhh fuck it wasn't just her. I thought she was making excuses. Really I was being kinda racist. Fuck.
[–]jonascf2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Of course, blue pill feminism claims girls will date any type of guys, and girls will eventually get around to marriage when they're finally in the mood (in their 30s), which means you can relax because everything is going just fine, right?
Well, it is kind of true. Just relax, dude.
[–]energyvolley3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link
deleted What is this?
[–]Xemnas812 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Charge of Generalisation
Burden of proof shift
Appeal to popular contemporary social rhetoric
[–]betterdeadthanbetaHeartless cynical bastard3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I like this posting style. Full cyborg mode.
[–]Xemnas811 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Browsing on phone mode you mean. :p
I have emotions-e.g. got an interview with Jobcentre Plus in 4 hours, nervous and underprepared-but it's clear that when BP.are predominantly both apathetic condescending social elitists AND moral absolutists , someone has to over ride that with the analytic counter approach.
[–]energyvolley0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Xemnas810 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It's a relativrly shallow analysis of a young inexperiencrf to PPD OP.
You seem to make the assumption that changr must be progress (I am not appealing to trafition but considering it)
Moreover you are not considering WHY women would change preference in partners somewhat dradtically when marriage became an option
Finally you seem close minded about the evo psych. So I would be genuinely interested to hear your alternative more comprehensive explanations.
[–]energyvolley2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -1 points-1 points-1 points 10 years ago | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–]Xemnas812 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There are more fallacies than ad hom!
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Women will date many sorts of men just not all men. Historically there have always been people undesirable for marriage- usually because they were wanting financially.
Also, what is this nonsense that most women get married in their 30's?? The average age of marriage is 27 with a 14 month engagement. So the average woman is getting proposed to at 25-26. Including the dating period, they are likely settling down with their eventual husband at 24(ish).
Failing to see the issue here...
[–]Xemnas812 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Male solipsism. Hypergamy benefits the gene pool by eradicating inferior genes.
[–]energyvolley4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]Xemnas810 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
Odd, and I was defending women for you..
Parental investment and hypergamy are the primary pre rational reasons that we encourage fathers not to abandon their children. There would be no concept of deadbeat dads if male polygamy benefitted the gene pool and human reproductive strategy
And your take on OP is...?
[–]wombatinaburrowfeminist marsupial2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Junk science doesn't become plausible when it's in your favour.
TBp have not explained why an entire.academic field.is junk...
[–]energyvolley-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Chad does not have superior genes. The beta that designed the iphone Chad uses has superior genes. Some day people will get that.
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