Solipsism, or Narcissism?

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August 9, 2015
15 upvotes

Redpill theory as described in the sidebar says women are "solipsistic" i.e. incredibly self centered. This is interesting and one can get some good conclusions from this observation. But not so many conclusions because there's not much psychological literature on "solipsism".

But there's a condition described in the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, for psychiatrists and psychologists) called "narcissism". There was "Narcissistic Personality Disorder" in DSM-4. In the new DSM-5 it's no longer considered a disorder, because it's become so damn common I guess, and it is adaptive and describes many very rich and successful people. But you should still know if your girl is like this.

An awful lot of girls are like this. An awful lot of relationships and marriages can be saved or resolved successfully if the guy understands this and learns about it.

If the guy understands, he'll automatically react better. Same as when I understood the Oedipal relationship and how one must think of all other girls differently from my mother, I suddenly became a total non-beta.

Here if you understand narcissism, you will not give the narcissistic supply they are after, it just won't happen when you think properly about that person and their frame of mind, and so they won't do that bad shit any more. It's been like magic for me.

A place to start is Sam Vaknin's channel on youtube. He's a very interesting guy, trained as a physicist but discussing psychology, and he says he is a psychopathic narcissist because of an abused childhood.

But he tells you to run away from a narcissist. I think you should try hanging in there for a while at least, because an awful lot of women are narcissists, and you might find one that is good in other ways. For long term, or at least short term.


Post Information
Title Solipsism, or Narcissism?
Author cover20
Upvotes 15
Comments 56
Date 09 August 2015 02:14 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit TheRedPill
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/35409
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/3gb29g/solipsism_or_narcissism/
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Comments

[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan28 points29 points  (15 children) | Copy

My $0.02c:

Almost all women are narcissists, the type of narcissism simply depends on which type she manifests. Solipsism is a way of thinking inherent to women (internal), narcissism is a way of behaving that is predicated entirely on solipsism (external.) Therefore, it is only rational that narcissism be more common in women than men, for it is established women are more instrincally solipsistic than men are. Throw in a toxic culture, social media validation, and the cock carousel and we have what we have, a culture full of narcissistic women who need to be treated like shit to even respect/desire you. Important to note: all narcissists are solipsistic, but not all solipsists are narcissistic.

If she's a vulnerable narcissist, she'll be a whiny solipsist, she can be an utter failure in life, but have the most incredible amount of unsubstantiated pride. And such women may not even seem shallow, or what have you. But the fact is women always put themselves before men unless the man has some incredibly (dark) power over her.

This is why when I hear a woman saying "I love my man and will do anything for him" and it's not just a platitude, I know that motherfucker is doing ass-to-mouth and hitting her with next level mind games to make her act right - but then he's comforting her afterwards and all she remembers is great sex and cuddles.

If she's a grandiose narcissist, she's more what you think of as a narcissist in general. Shallow, vapid, self-important. More psychopathic seeming.

Women are solipsistic, and that solipsism becomes one of two types of narcissism, for said solipsism is devoid of the reasoning necessary enough to effectively keep the narcissism in check via abstraction:

  • vulnerable narcissist: - easily offended, super sensitive, actually think they are victims

  • grandiose narcissist: - more violent, less sensitive

Grandiose narcissists tend not to show any empathy any of the time, much like a psychopath (IMO, on the narcissistic spectrum they are closer to a psychopath than a vulnerable narcissist)

HOWEVER vulnerable narcissists may show empathy, but as soon as their victim complex kicks in BANG - empathy goes, justified by the fact you don't deserve it as they're the victim.

I find most women I meet fall into either group of behaviour. As narcissism is a spectrum (we are all narcissistic to a degree) rather than a binary yes/no state, it therefore seems that narcissism, like solipsism is a fundamental of AWALT. It's just that the narcissism manifests differently from woman to woman.

Of course, you're going to instantly recognise grandiosity in a woman as narcissism, but can you distinguish between a vulnerable narcissist and a woman? It actually seems that the traits of vulnerable narcissism and the traits of what we consider female behaviour are near damn ubiquitously synonymous.

Most people wouldn't see victim-playing or tone policing as vulnerable narcissism, they'd see it as pure Machiavellianism. And it is that. But it's also the vulnerable narcissists go-to power play. And by god, do they believe their own bullshit.

[–]Stythe3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

This is a very accurate post. It seems in this society women often slip between one or the other as well. For example, my ex would play the victim whenever she got insecure. When she got super insecure she would lash out (especially on drugs as she was an addict, which is just icing on the cake of poison in this case).

I think more than anything your post is good for understanding that there are variables to everything, nothing is constant. Especially to a woman.

[–]1cover20[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Carly Fiorina, in her normal corporate and now political roles, is surely a grandiose narcissist. She's a tough tough broad with a limitless thirst for power. I can only imagine the geeky nice engineers at HP trying to reason with her, just making her more vindictive, and they're wondering what they did wrong!

But when the dustup between Trump and the female Fox interviewer (who Trump tweeted was "bleeding out her eyes and wherever") came up a couple days ago, there she was with the usual feminist manshaming against Trump. Oh she's just another one of them, at least opportunistically acting as a vulnerable narcissist.

It instantly killed any thought I had that she would be a good president. Even though I see she tried to walk it back on the Sunday talk show today, I just cannot support that for president. Yet on further consideration, her status as a female grandiose narcissist, impossible to reason with, should have been plenty already.

[–]DefaultUser941 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy

In my opinion , most women are solipsistic, but not narcissistic. That is, they have a me, my family, my friends first kind of attitude, but they are capable of attachment, which the narcissist totally lacks. Also, most women's(even the hot ones) self-esteem is too fragile to even come anywhere close to the male narcissist's.The real narcissist's belief in himself is supreme and unshakable. Women are, generally speaking, very insecure.

[–]1cover20[S] 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy

With respect I don't think you have experienced a narcissist. A narcissist's belief in himself is insecure and fragile and constantly being compensated for, hence the need for narcissistic supply.

A narcissist can attach very strongly. But the reason for that attachment, I am now coming to understand, is that the need for supply is strong. Well we all respond to our needs and we all have strongly felt needs, but the narcissist is that need, is subsumed by it.

[–]DefaultUser940 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

I'm a narcissist telling you this. A narcissist doesn't necessarily have to get his validation from other people. His validation can come from a strongly held internal belief. The external validation only reinforces what the narcissist already "knows" about himself

[–]1cover20[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Are you a male narcissist, or a female one? I guess female because you are so impressed by the male. But I say that without any certainty.

Women get attached via hormones. Oh shit do they, including or especially narcissistic women. That's what it means if a guy is in the fuckzone not the friendzone. The woman's vagina is attached to him.

See my comment about Sam Vaknin. You know that you're a narcissist, but you are probably less likely to know if (other) women are, because you tend to lack empathy.

The narcissism you describe sounds like a normal healthy level, not a malignant level. Finding something internal to get you off your ass and working is a part of functioning well in this competitive world. I guess when you become a black hole for external narcissistic supply, that's when it becomes malignant -- what I've been calling "a narcissist" rather than a normal person with a normal level of narcissism. It's characteristic of people with weak, rather than strong, self esteem.

I would be interested in your responses to these perspectives.

[–]DefaultUser942 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

The strongly held belief isn't just normal healthy self-confidence for the narcissist. It is the belief in one's superiority over others. This tends to make the narcissist very isolated(emotionally) and paranoid.

[–]1cover20[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Sometimes such a belief is justified. Even if one believes all souls are equally valuable, there are dimensions to superiority, like intelligence, physical ability, beauty or game ability where some people certainly are superior to others. Such a belief in superiority is not sickness but just recognition of objective reality.

And if one doesn't think too much of areas of inferiority, or overrates oneself a bit, that's typical of successful people and isn't malignant narcissism.

[–]1PantsonFire12340 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Let me share something that might be of value.

What I learned from my ex and myself was that the mirror is their enemy and friend. She always avoided the mirror in my house when she had to put on her layer after layer of make up. I never understood why until I evaluated myself and how I end up seeing two images in the mirror. When I feel good and satisfied I see the grown up guy but when I feel drained and setback, that's when I see the small and timid boy from years back. I can't trust my own eyes when I evaluate myself and I still struggle to control it.

Then there's the whole feedback loop. A narcissist ends up with a strong need to control/validate, but why? He/She uses people to create a positive feedback loop to control their self image. Because they can't trust their mirror, they can't use their own eyes or self knowledge. This positive feedback look is referred to as narcissistic supply.

Here's the catch. When a NPD encounters a person that provides them with supply they will grade their supply, like a drug- the better the supply the higher the kick. This high grade supply ends up being addicting to the narcissist and he/she desires to harness said supply. They believe that if they secure this supply (control) then they will finally fill that empty hole in their heart (the self doubt and loss of emotions and bonding).

The big irony happens when the narcissists finally controls his supply. See, there are two types of supply- primary and secondary. Secondary supply is the supply that the NPD so desperately needs to stay internally 'alive'. It's the supply that the narcissist has real tangible control over, think spouses/family/parents/children/friends. Allot of these people used to be primary supply- it's this this type of supply that's unpredictable and not controlled by the narcissist. Due to this nature it gives the NPD the biggest kick, like a huge dose of confidence drugs.

The problem arises when he/she finds a primary supply, overvalues it because it is new and unpredictable. Then succeeds in controling this high value supply but ends up disappointed. The reason being that predictable supply loses it's punch. It gets boring, the supplies weaknesses are starting to show and the NPD fails to feed him/herself with it. That inner doubt that they get when they face the 'mirror' and see the fragile self can't be dispelled by their once 'perfect' supply no more.

And that is why narcissists end up overvaluing/devaluing, why they can't seem to bond for long periods and why they are internally deeply insecure. Control/Validation > Primary/Secondary Supply > Confidence/Supply > False Self. This process has to be continually fed by someone or something.

Anyone who doesn't contribute to this is thrown away. People who lose their purpose are discarded (low grade/devalued supply). But people who risk the narcissist to be narcissist injured (high grade/uncontrollable supply) are equally discarded. This means that uncontrollable alpha's, other narcissists and otherwise healthy people who don't accept their unavoidable bullshit are also discarded, but out of fear rather than power.

[–]1cover20[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

solipsism is devoid of the reasoning necessary enough to effectively keep the narcissism in check via abstraction

Very good, this makes sense. Your post is indeed excellent and explains a lot of what I've observed and started the thread about.

So why does my thread, containing this excellent post as well as those of MorpheusGodofDreams and vys1, currently have only 1 point?

[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

So why does my thread, containing this excellent post as well as those of MorpheusGodofDreams and vys1, currently have only 1 point?

I tweeted my comment without context, my followers probably upvoted it.

[–] points points | Copy

[permanently deleted]

[–]Soriq2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Not sure why you're downvoted so much. His website is http://illimitablemen.com/

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks man. I'll check it out in more detail. I know I've read his monk mode article which was awesome.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (12 children) | Copy

There's a difference between thinking "I'm the greatest thing in the universe" and "I'm the only thing in the universe".

[–]1cover20[S] 2 points3 points  (10 children) | Copy

Indeed. And we may be underestimating the level of their self-centredness.

Maybe your chick isn't narcissistic. Mine is. She got more that way after about 5 years of marriage. Have heard many similar stories.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (1 child) | Copy

Solipsism is evolutionary. It enables them to dissociate quickly and easily. It enables them to leave alpha males the moment they are injured and move to another male. Why? Because in the past an injured male means susceptibility to death from external causes. Starvation. Being eaten by animals.

Narcissism is a personality disorder. It can be nurtured and not natured. It sounds much like solipsism, but the basis of narcissism is a damaged ego, usually in the developmental stages and usually by the caretaker. In order to survive the child creates a new and improved "invincible" ego to ensure they never get hurt again. That is the mask that narcissists wear, which is why many believe them to have grandiose self-esteem. The truth is the exact opposite. Underneath it is still the hurt child.

Someone can be both narcissistic and solipsistic at the same time.

[–]quasimoto1272 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

War Brides, basically. Men are not wired to be like that, because our primal instincts are to take care of our family (Historically and Prehistorically speaking, protecting our family from dangers such as wild beasts, etc.)

Women on the other hand, have to be like that in order to find the best male possible. If she isn't solipsistic, she'd be devoted to the first male she got in some kind of relationship with, alpha, beta, what have you. But their instincts (hypergamy) push them to find the best suitable mate.

[–]Di-onysos3 points4 points  (8 children) | Copy

I would not say that all females are narcissists all the time(god knows all of them have the potential), it's just that they are incapable of considering a situation from a point of view that is not their own and not tinged by their feelz. Feelz is the primary mode of processing reality for females and will always override logic, and without logic you cannot think(even though everyone says they're opposites) emphatically, as in seeing the situation from another's point of view.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

it's just that they are incapable of considering a situation from a point of view that is not their own and not tinged by their feelz

So much this that I wanna kick my own balls.

[–]1cover20[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

So you say they all lack empathy. But I don't think they all do.

Maybe it's that they are just very cold. I would think a tough business woman (Carly Fiorina comes to mind, pick your own example) can put herself in the other's shoes, to plan strategy and exploit that person. Cold empathy.

A woman is warm for her children, and nobody else ever. Though she can be attracted to guys sexually. That's how it seems to me.

[–]Di-onysos5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

There's a difference between empathy and the warmth you describe, I call it sympathy. I quote an old post of mine to explain this:

"Woman's sympathy, when invoked, can be very strong, but their empathy is weak, much weaker than men's.

Empathy = ability to imagine yourself in the other person's position

Sympathy = feeling bad because of other person's misfortune, an emotional warmth

Women are the solipsitic sex and cannot put themselves into other person's shoes like men can, but are capable(if they're not damaged) of higher emotional warmth that can also be called sympathy."

[–]1cover20[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

But even that, maybe only for their own children.

[–]TheKorken 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy

A woman is warm for her children, and nobody else ever. Though she can be attracted to guys sexually. That's how it seems to me.

You think that isnt also selfcentered though? Woman want to feel good all the time, so they do things that make them feel good. "Beeing a good mother." is their mission, not raising "a strong and independent child."

[–]1cover20[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's self centered for sure. We call it "solipsism" though we might better call it "egocentrism" as someone noted above. But that's neither necessary nor sufficient for narcissism. I like /u/illimitableman 's idea that the solipsism prevents the perspective needed to keep narcissism to a reasonable level in a woman.

Still forming my opinion about whether women want to raise a strong and independent child, though I have to say you might be right as my kids are in their teenage years and that part of it (if it's to be done competently at least) is really on my shoulders.

[–]AnnFranklyMyDear0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

do you mean empathetically? emphatically means with emphasis

[–]Di-onysos1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yes, thank you, didn't know that. English isn't my first language.

[–]1RBuddDwyer2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I think the difference between solipsism and narcissism is that solipsism is a phrase we borrowed in TRP to label the idea that a woman's thought process always puts her front and center, regardless of the situation. Ian Ironwood does a good job describing it here, but the gist is that a man looks at a project and says, "what needs to be done?" A woman looks at the same project and says, "what can I do to help?" You see, she puts herself in the middle regardless of whether it is relevant to do so. A perfectly healthy woman is still solipsistic in her thoughts.

Narcissism, as used in the psych world, is something entirely different. Narcissists have no sense of self. They're empty inside. They do not believe they have any intrinsic worth, so they seek it from outside themselves. They do things to make themselves the center of attention so that they can fill the void inside that they cannot fill themselves. True narcissism is a real personality disorder, not just a label for someone who is self-centered or very non-altruistic. They truly need the external validation just to survive, not because they like it. They also have no idea there is anything wrong with themselves, so they almost never get treated.

[–]MorpheusGodOfDreams1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

IMO, we should use the term Egocentrism rather than solipsism. Its catchier, closer to Narcissism, and really hits home how women are children. When dealing with women and most men, Developmental Psychology is incredibly useful.

Solipsism: the view or theory that the self is all that can be known to exist.

Ego-centrism: refers to the natural restriction on our perception caused by the simple fact that we can only see the world from our perspective. More specifically, it is the inability to untangle subjective schemas from objective reality; an inability to understand or assume any perspective other than their own.

[–]1cover20[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I agree with this. I remember reading decades ago about solipsism, and it's a philosophical concept as you describe.

So now my question can be reframed: "Egocentrism, or Narcissism?"

[–]MorpheusGodOfDreams0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, I disagree with the use of a philosophical term because women rarely take a philosophical view on anything.

all women (and a good amount of men) are egocentric. A good amount of women have mild narcissism because of growing up in a western society. A few are extreme narcissists, about double the amount of men.

[–]8thhenry1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

DSM's are worthless now. Psychology is run by feminists, BP's, and white nights. A lot of diagnosis that used to be listed as primarily found in women were removed or edited to remove the butt hurt.

[–]ROTHSCHILD_GOON_19130 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

yeah, solipsism is a vague thing and not really real or applicable in practice (real life). it is much better and more practical to treat every woman as a pathological narcissist, because that is what they are.

by the way, most socioeconomically and sexually successful males can also be categorized as pathological narcissists. it's just kind of the way the world works. it's just that nobody talks about it because all the powerful, successful people would never bring attention to it (why would they?) and everyone else is just dumb and clueless.

the sad (or not so sad) truth is that the entire civilized world revolves around the institution of narcissism. nothing substantial would ever happen if it wasn't for people who are absolutely, positively obsessed with themselves and their own greatness. it is certainly possible to argue that this world is actually not so great, and that alternatives could potentially (and in my opinion, definitely would) be better. but it is impossible to argue that the world we have could function in any other way than the absolute worship of narcissism and everything that comes from it.

[–]1PantsonFire12340 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

You make a good point I've advocated for a long time. I've noticed the same similarities, it's easy to confuse the one for the other though. I watched all videos from Vaknin before I arrived here. Then I realized the rabbit hole went a whole lot deeper.

Things like hoovers, triangulation, lying, compartmentalization and over/de-valuing are all behaviors women tend to exhibit. Narcissistic supply can be mistaken for simple attention seeking.

As a rule a NPD needs supply to maintain his emotional well being so not giving it would be counter productive. If you don't give to them someone else will.

[–]1cover20[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I used to give it so she wouldn't take it out on the boys. Now the kids are older and are rebelling against me, I'll let them work it out. They need something to break the Oedipal attachment anyway.

I get depressed after one or two Vaknin videos, so I can't take too much of it at a sitting. Like he's a brave man giving us a courageous report from a very dark place. But as a narcissist his perception is limited as well.

[–]1PantsonFire12340 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yes it does make you feel hopeless, I think woman are far more likely to develop strong NPD disorders should they not become BPD.

Besides that you have plenty of beta men who have succumbed to their abusive mother or childhood and simply can't do no better. What Sam describes is the extreme end of the spectrum though. I hope your wife ain't like that.

[–]battyryder-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

madness, also who the hell wants a womans sympathy

[–]1cover20[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

who the hell wants a womans sympathy

Children want their mother's sympathy, appropriately.

But they have to learn that they should not see any other woman (including the mother of their children) in the same way at all.

But this is more about Oedipus than Narcissus.

[–]Mr_Siggy-2 points-1 points  (6 children) | Copy

"But he tells you to run away from a narcissist. I think you should try hanging in there for a while at least, because an awful lot of women are narcissists, and you might find one that is good in other ways. For long term, or at least short term."

We're dudes .. We don't get caught in horse shit.

(Boooooooooooooommmmmmm!!!!)))

[–]1cover20[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

If you want to raise children, you are signing to get stuck in a lot of horse shit for a long time, in ways you cannot believe if you haven't been down the path. But there are rewards if you do it more or less right.

MGTOW is not the only reasonable choice.

[–] points points | Copy

[permanently deleted]

[–]TruthNotFeelings0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

He never said anything about fixing. He said understanding.

[–]1cover20[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Correct. There are no perfect people, not even perfect children. I just want everyone to get through it pretty well and onto the point where they are running their own lives.

Nothing is ever resolved. Hardly ever anyway. This is something I am learning in my 50's. But it's the human condition. The next generation, and the ones after, will go through the same stupid shit we do. It just is.

I have met and overcome great challenges in this life. Raising kids in this environment is not for the faint of heart, and maybe I am just lucky (as well as unlucky.) But, well, I am smarter than most people so I think I can do it.

[–]Mr_Siggy-2 points-1 points  (1 child) | Copy

Your seriously hung up on her.. You need to leave her. GTFO.

Runn!!

(How the fuck did you get a one next to your name and you still a bitch?)

You put up this "great argument" of why.. But no argument of .. Why not?

[–]1cover20[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Because there may be good things too about this person. Good things I already know about. Strong offsetting reasons to stay if I can handle the narcissism.

Heck, it seems I am doing OK since I incorporated this understanding. It's supposed to be impossible to deal with a narcissist, after all Sam Vaknin tells you to run. And he's not only an obviously smart guy, he's a narcissist with a horrible childhood as a cause.

But he's like a girl telling a guy how to get along with a girl. Girls don't know this; they don't know how to be guys. Why do we think a narcissist knows how or whether one can get along with a narcissist? Sam Vaknin is like a girl telling you quite honestly what she feels as a girl, what it's like to be a girl. This is very useful information for my empathy -- as a non narcissist I have the capability of empathy, to use information like Vaknin provides. But when he says "give up" he may not reckon with the power someone with empathy has. (Remember empathy does not imply sympathy. But when I can stop being bothered, I am in a much better mood and probably more sympathetic.)



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