I think this comment deserves a post of it's own.

I mean, that tree was the tree of knowledge, named like this because eating from it grants, well, knowledge. Before eating that apple, Adam and Eve had no concept of "right and wrong" whatsoever. They only learned about this idea by eating that apple and before that, they could not even tell that eating it was wrong, because god did not give them a bloody concept of "wright and wrong".

So god has created those two clueless apes, gave them this insatiable sense of curiosity, made sure they have no idea what "wrong" even means and then plants that tree right in front of their faces and makes sure that it is the most interesting object in the whole place. Then he allows that snake to enter his turf and to seduce Adam and Eve, instead of kicking it out and then he blames them for doing what he pretty much made them do.

If god would exist, I would not only call him a narcissist, but downright a sadistic psychopath.

[–]J_the_Assassin4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]LimousineLibtard1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Addressing your points (just to clarify, I'm not religious however was in my youth):

It begs the question though, was it really perfection though if one of the first things she did was break like the one rule they had?

Free will.

God wanted humans to choose to do the right thing.

Also, to be banished forever for doing something bad one time, instead of just disciplining them and teaching them further kinda goes against the message of love and forgiveness.

first, this was the old testament: there's fuck all 'love and forgiveness' and a lot more 'bizarrely heavy punishments' because it was meant to dissuade humans from doing the sort of shit that got them killed.

It was a rule book where the source was 'a magic sky father', the content of which was actually drawn from human experience.

Example: there's an absolute fuck tonne of rules literally listed (for literal pages) going into quite a lot of detail. Among the banned items listed, you'll often enough find foods, which will have some practical purpose to being banned (ie, if you're a bronze age nomad who makes a habit of eating seafood found in the desert, you're probably already dead), so it made sense to have incredibly harsh consequences in biblical stories as the danger of living in ancient times was so much worse - harsher stakes called for harsher examples

Second, God specifically states that the humans must leave Eden 'lest they eat of the tree of life and become like us[gods]', so it wasn't about punishment so much as avoiding creating a race of pretty-smart-but-not-god-level-smart immortal beings.

God sounds more like a narcissist, especially if they actually considered Eve perfection.

God as written in the bible is an incredibly inconsistent character throughout the different books but there are absolutely many times it would be fair to attach such titles as narcissistic or psychotic to the actions.

[–]Vlad_the_imp_hailer1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fukitol130 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Vlad_the_imp_hailer0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

Sure. Paul talks about it in Acts 24:15.

And [I] have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

The just are obviously those who do God’s will. And the unjust are those that do not do God’s will.

But why would God also resurrect people who didn’t do his will? The whole bible talks about how the evil ones will be cut off, destroyed, etc. So these can obviously not be the same class of people that practice wickedness.

But if you think about it, there’s a difference in doing something bad intentionally and doing something bad out of ignorance. The latter group can generally not be held to the same standard as the previous.

Romans 2:15 shows that we all have a law written in our heart, our conscience. It tells us that things like stealing, murdering and so on are bad. So people who never learned of God can still follow their conscience. If they have done that, John 5:28,29 also agrees saying:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good [the just], unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil [the unjust], unto the resurrection of judgment.

So they that have done evil (or ”vile things”, unwittingly breaking God’s law), or “the unjust” as Paul puts it, shall be resurrected to be judged.

But why resurrect them if you’re only going to judge them right away? That seems like unnecessary work. I mean, their crimes are already been paid off through their death (Romans 6: 7 “For he that is dead is freed from sin”) which means they come out of death with a clean slate.

So this judgement must be of what they choose to do after learning about God.

[–]Fukitol130 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Vlad_the_imp_hailer1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, you’re smart enough to realize that, but many people are not that clever so they allow pride and selfishness to make them rebel. After all, Adam and Eve knew God is the omnipotent creator, but they chose to rebel for selfish reasons. The reason was they wanted to be like God, the ultimate authority on what is right and wrong.

Since the question “is God’s sovereignty righteous or not?” was raised, it has to be settled. If God settles it by ignoring it or just claiming his rule to be righteous, then humans could still question it. If he settled it by force, humans could say he was a tyrant. If he killed the humans, the angels could say he was a tyrant, and also it would mean his goal of populating the world with their offspring would have failed, making him a failure.

The only way it could be legally settled was to allow humans to decide right and wrong for a period of time and look at the results. That’s this time period we’re living in right now, from the fall from grace up to “the day of the lord”. That’s why there’s so much evil going on in the world. ”The day of the lord” comes when it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that humans can’t decide right from wrong, at which time he will take back control again.

Then is when this resurrection of just and unjust will take place and all the “unjust” will be given a second chance. But the Bible indicates that many of them will still not accept God as ruler.

Isaiah 65:20 indicates that even if you’re 100 years old you will appear young like a child, and you will be held responsible if you sin.

Revelation 20:3, 7-10 is very detailed. It says that during the first 1000 years the devil will be incarcerated, inactive, which gives a respite for the resurrection and the returning of everything to the original state of perfection.

But after 1000 years Satan will “be loosed for a little time”. He “shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth”. God is so just that he even gives the devil a fair last chance to try to deceive all perfect humans.

The results? “[T]he number of [the ones who rebel] is as the sand of the sea,” so a lot of people will still be dumb or proud enough to rebel.

The difference now is that the whole trial of whether humans can rule themselves is over and a precedent has been set: humans can not decide right and wrong. (Jer 10:23)

So verse 9 says that as they try to attack the righteous people, “fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them”. God can then righteously judge and execute anyone who rebels, because they’re deliberately sinning while being perfect and inexcusable.

After that, “the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone”, from where he will never return.

This is a lot to take in, but when you think about it, every loose end is neatly tied up: Everyone gets a fair chance, everyone gets to choose, everyone gets to take responsibility, and in the end, everything has been restored to perfection, all tears, pain and death are gone (rev 21:4) and the issue of sovereignty has been legally settled in an ironclad manner. The original purpose for earth can then be fulfilled. (Gen 1:26,28)

[–]Fukitol130 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, you’re smart enough to realize that, but many people are not that clever so they allow pride and selfishness to make them rebel. After all, Adam and Eve knew God is the omnipotent creator, but they chose to rebel for selfish reasons. The reason was they wanted to be like God, the ultimate authority on what is right and wrong.

As far as i remember, it was eve who wanted that, adam was persuaded without the greed part.

Also they were without knowledge of right and wrong, so could one really say that to be an equivalent example of post resurrection psychology?

Since the question “is God’s sovereignty righteous or not?” was raised, it has to be settled. If God settles it by ignoring it or just claiming his rule to be righteous, then humans could still question it.

Assuming that god is the original creator of the universe, the very concept of righteousness would be created by him.

To then apply created values as some form of justification (another created concept) for the sovereignty of god is meaningless as even if were it not so, God would be sovereign regardless.

Why is it at all necessary for god to be "righteous"?

God can be the judge of righteousness itself rather than righteousness be in judgement of God.

The only way it could be legally settled was to allow humans to decide right and wrong for a period of time and look at the results. That’s this time period we’re living in right now, from the fall from grace up to “the day of the lord”. That’s why there’s so much evil going on in the world. ”The day of the lord” comes when it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that humans can’t decide right from wrong, at which time he will take back control again.

I have to disagree, as you're implying that the condition for the day of the lord is for God himself to have failed by humans proving unworthy of having free will.

Then is when this resurrection of just and unjust will take place and all the “unjust” will be given a second chance. But the Bible indicates that many of them will still not accept God as ruler.

Again, would anyone of sound mind ever sin if they were literally resurrected and told that the choice is essentially an eternity of bliss by accepting jesus or eternal torture?

People sin currently mostly because there is no proof of God, resurrection would be proof unquestionable.

But after 1000 years Satan will “be loosed for a little time”. He “shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth”. God is so just that he even gives the devil a fair last chance to try to deceive all perfect humans.

To do what? No matter if the devil succeeds or fails, it wouldn't affect the omnipotence of God.

To what end?

The results? “[T]he number of [the ones who rebel] is as the sand of the sea,” so a lot of people will still be dumb or proud enough to rebel.

How? , thats what I'm asking science has only recently shown the importance of brushing teeth and just a few decades later, almost everyone brushes daily with the exception of the dumb.

Why are the people who are emticed to rebel out of stupidity to face punishment, why did god make them so dumb?

The difference now is that the whole trial of whether humans can rule themselves is over and a precedent has been set: humans can not decide right and wrong. (Jer 10:23)

Precedent for whom?

So verse 9 says that as they try to attack the righteous people, “fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them”. God can then righteously judge and execute anyone who rebels, because they’re deliberately sinning while being perfect and inexcusable.

If God created them, then he also created their wills, their intellect and their piety, to give some less Than others and then blame them for what he made them.

I'm not sure if I understand how righteous that is.

After that, “the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone”, from where he will never return.

If the devil knows he can't win (which he couldn't with an army of fallen angels) with mere mortals, why would he go ahead with deceiving them?

This is a lot to take in, but when you think about it, every loose end is neatly tied up: Everyone gets a fair chance, everyone gets to choose, everyone gets to take responsibility, and in the end, everything has been restored to perfection, all tears, pain and death are gone (rev 21:4) and the issue of sovereignty has been legally settled in an ironclad manner. The original purpose for earth can then be fulfilled. (Gen 1:26,28)

I'm not sire about the loose ends, but even so, for whom is the issue of sovereignty to be settled?

What is the purpose for the earth?

How are we to know that Christians have it right and not jews or Muslims, after all they're all people of the book and worship the God of abraham.?

What about the other faiths? How can one know that Buddhists or Taoists aren't the ones that are in the right?

[–]RisingSun640 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Also, what is this bullshit about everybody that comes after is doomed for some shit that didn't even happen when their grandparents were born. That's pretty damn vindictive and sadistic. Punishing people who had nothing to do with the "original sin".

If I made something and it didn't turn out the way I liked, I'd make it again or just not have as unrealistic of standards. Maybe they knew what right and wrong was, but were they taught how to resist temptation and/or appreciate all that they had?

Realistically, who the hell knows what happened back then? Given how governments like to hide shit and create lies to control the masses, I wouldn't be surprised if that's all religion was from the very beginning. Even if it wasn't governments, people being greedy/troll-y could have tampered with the original messages to do their bidding, real or not.

[–]Vlad_the_imp_hailer1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That’s an interesting question. If we look in Genesis 3:7, after Adam and Eve had sinned, they quite suddenly realized they were naked and covered their privates with fig leaves. Didn’t they know they were naked? Yes, but before it wasn’t a big deal. (Gen 2:25) You have nothing to be ashamed of if you’re perfect. What they realized was that they had lost their perfection, and now their genitals were something to be ashamed off because they could no longer produce perfect life, only imperfect life.

So whatever happened on a technical level must have had to do with genetics. Some kind of information changed in some way. Later in Romans 5:12 it explains that imperfection has spread from parent to child like an inheritable disease, so that all offsprings of Adam have this defect.

So the one who punished humankind was Adam, not God. God had informed them of the effects of sinning, so it was their responsibility.

An analogy is if I inform you that if you jump from a high cliff, the law of gravity will make you fall to your death. If you still go jump, is it my responsibility? Maybe if I didn’t warn you of a danger, I could have some small responsibly, but if I warned you, I don’t have responsibility for your choice.

Now, imagine you take all your children in your arms and jump off that cliff so that all of you die. Whose responsibility is the death of your children? Yours, of course. Doubly so.

God could not force them to obey, because then he’d be a bully and tyrant, so respecting their free will he let them choose, but arranged so that everyone who wanted to opt out could have a way to escape everlasting death.

Realistically, who the hell knows what happened back then?

Yeah, that’s the problem with history: It’s gone, so you must examine the chronicles, myths and/or archaeological evidence to get a picture. And even then it’s a matter of faith.

If you want to be strict, there is for example no proof that the American civil war ever happened, it’s all hearsay, myths passed down from generation to generation and all the physical evidence could have been made up or have some other explanation. After all, the government likes to hide shit and create lies to control the masses, so they could have put a lot of effort into making it seem realistic, for propaganda purposes.

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Title	I think this comment deserves a post of it's own.
Author	codename_coltrane
Upvotes	1240
Comments	104
Date	November 27, 2018 10:02 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MGTOW
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/a0tiud/i_think_this_comment_deserves_a_post_of_its_own/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MGTOW/i-think-this-comment-deserves-a-post-of-its-own.452462 https://theredarchive.com/post/452462

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