Stardusk vs. Sandman: Round 2

TFCNU · 2015-02-23T20:51:54+00:00

Stardusk's ego is getting in his way. I agree with him that MGTOW has to be more than what Sandman offers but he misses the point. Sandman is not pretending to be some deep thinker. He's just trying to get people engaged. And yeah, he'd like to get paid for his time.Teachers get paid. He's a teacher.

Stardusk is intent on providing a positive definition of MGTOW, which is great. It's important to be "for" something not just against something. However, a movement/philosophy that is positively defined may still have things they are against. Yes, MGTOW is more than anti-feminism but we're certainly against feminism.

spaceballs-1 · 2015-02-23T17:56:11+00:00

These two guys are acting like bitches.

thrownaway_MGTOW · 2015-02-24T00:17:52+00:00

ALSO... from the comments on the Sandman video, there was THIS (IMO) excellent comment, one which deserves a wider audience [emphasis added]:

aporiac 2 days ago (edited)

You [Sandman] say, "Men have always seemed to define themselves relative to women, and it's part of our evolutionary biology."

I'm in my mid-fifties and I can assure you this has not always been true, even within my own lifetime.

For my father's generation and up until, say, around 30 years or so ago, men were much more self-reliant and comfortable with a masculine identity and largely defined themselves in relation to each other. Furthermore, there was general acceptance of separate male and female domains, and a social acceptance of the need for men to have an independent existence within a masculine domain. Men and women certainly mixed and, of course, had intimate relationships, but men were assumed to need spaces where they could escape female intimacy and feminised environments for the good of their mental health (as indeed they do!) Traditionally, the workplace served this role, but so did public bars and other places that were exclusive male or at least heavily segregated.

For example, when I first started to going to pubs in the mid-1970's (I'm British), most had separate 'public' and 'lounge' bars and women were not welcome in the former. This was not enforced as a formal ban, but it was considered discourteous for a woman to intrude on this male space because the men there wouldn't then be able to act and speak freely. And so, it was okay for men to swear, argue vehemently, exchange insults, be generally rowdy, and even fight in the 'public' bar, but not in the lounge bar where the same behaviour would get you ejected. Of course, if a man took his wife or girlfriend out for a drink, they would go into the lounge.

If you look at most traditional societies, men and women are intimate within marriage and families, but they also have a life outside of the family where they tend to associate with their own kind. It was much more the case that women defined themselves in relation to men than the other way round because women obtained their status first from their fathers and then from their husbands whereas men obtained their status largely through their accomplishments. My father did not need to be a MGHOW. He was married, and was certainly a good husband, but he was still his own man. 30+ years ago any man who wasn't was looked down on by other men (and women) as henpecked. Of course the reason why he was henpecked is because his wife didn't respect him either!

You need to go easy on this 'evolutionary biology' stuff, Sandman. Like most people who are fond of it, you take the small insights that we have and stretch them far beyond what is justified by our level of knowledge. To quote Saussure, "It is much easier to discover a truth than to know what it means."

Incidentally, the idea that men did not express their feelings to each other back then is bullshit. However, men do tend to communicate differently to women. The story about buttoned-up and non-communicative men being liberated by feminism because it has permitted them to express their 'feminine side' is the opposite of the truth: men have never been less able to speak to each other than today. The fact is that men don't have or need a feminine side - their masculinity provides them with everything that women have and usually much else besides. MGTOW is needed today precisely because men are not allowed to be themselves, but this hasn't always been the case. In former times when men wanted to speak about themselves they sought out other men for the very good reason that women weren't interested and wouldn't have had a clue what they were saying anyway. Women don't want men to 'open up' to them because that would make men a burden, which is the last thing women want! And so, of necessity, men used to lean much more on each other. Of course some men are very unsympathetic to other men, but this is the exception rather than the rule. In the case of women, it is rather the other way round. If there is an evolutionary reason for this it is probably because women find vulnerable men disconcerting. Women need men to protect and provide for them, and you need your protector and provider to be strong.

Sgt_Miggs · 2015-02-24T01:16:55+00:00

The thing Stardusk doesn't seem to understand is that what Sandman lacks in depth he makes up for in presentation. I stumbled across Stardusk before I even really knew what MGTOW was all about and I found it to be completely inaccessible. Without the proper understanding of MGTOW he just comes across like the pedantic professor whose lecture you're desperately trying to focus on, but his monotone cadence just lulls you into a boredom trance. It wasn't until I started watching Sandman that I started to really "get" MGTOW because his explanation was simple, clear and mostly to the point.

I've moved beyond Sandman, because he does focus on basic stuff and I find Stardusk more engaging now that I understand what the fuck he is talking about, but he needs to come down off his high horse. I have trouble believing anyone would get into MGTOW if the first person they heard about it from was Stardusk or Barbar. It would be like telling someone who is unfamiliar but interested in fantasy literature to go read The Silmarillion and expecting them to enjoy it.

I'm disappointed in Stardusk, his condescending "commercialization" comments (when he take donations himself) makes him seem like a crotchety hipster.

thick_knees · 2015-02-23T20:00:46+00:00

I think spetsnaz is the only true, humble MGTOW youtuber. Even though Sandman, Bar Bar and Stardusk have some good material (Bar Bar and Stardusk mainly), they always let slip a few remarks that reveal them to be insecure pseudo-intellectuals

thrownaway_MGTOW · 2015-02-23T23:42:53+00:00

My personal view is that while EACH of these guys have created (a self-justifying) "rationale" for their own little program-channels...

The ROOT problem here, is that ALL of them have begun (whether by original intent or just taking advantage of the "opportunity") making money (and FAME/STATUS = EGO) off if it.*

Hence the infantile dick comparison... pissing match... and other inanities.

But all that said... Having now suffered through BOTH (ridiculously long) videos -- something I would be averse to otherwise -- that Sandman was at least addressing an issue; and that that Stardusk is to begin with "full of himself" and beyond that just butthurt and ego-bruised (and possibly scared of the loss of revenue, or at least a reduction in it's growth).

Final conclusion... youtube is basically a "crap forum" (hell, any/all multiple participant "forums" eventually have their "crap" sides, and occasionally get participants stuck in various self-created muck & mire -- and it ALWAYS* gets worse as numbers increase, and motives change as a result).

* Because I've seen a similar kind of thing happen with a whole HOST of other things -- various hobbies or philosophies (I suppose you could say "special interests" or "worldviews" or even "philosophies" and "programs") that became careers/businesses -- and the ensuing "chip on shoulder" and market-segment-defense, etc. This is/was all entirely predictable, as well as... yes, being rather childish (i.e. "human").

EDIT: Also, as another thought, this whole thing reminds me of the "milk vs meat" problem when it comes to religious instruction (or really instruction in ANY philosophical or even "deep" field or subject) -- the reality is that both are necessary, and anyone who argues SOLELY for one or another (or even argues that one need general PREFERENCE before the other, or has more value -- independent of the other) is a self-obsessed idiot, who cannot see the forest for the trees.

Mysogyny · 2015-02-24T00:56:48+00:00

This video is dumb.

Stardusk is deliberately misunderstanding everything that Sandman says.

frzndesserts · 2015-02-24T01:53:57+00:00

there are a lot of great mgtow guys out there. sandman, stardusk, barbarrosa and spetznaz are all great and bring their unique style and point of view to mgtow. You get different perspectives from all of them. it just depends the mood your in at the moment. Some other favorites of mine are Sargon of Akkad, Sane madman 103,neo unplugged, bachelor not looking, Bane666, Terrence Popp, thorium, razor blade kandy, goodfella, raging golden eagle, blackgnosticspeaks,ravishing rick rude. and a true punk rock attitude on mgtow goes to SexyMgtow- to me he is the johnny rotten of Mgtow and he is always entertaining!

ColtsDragoon · 2015-02-23T21:11:38+00:00

why would you even acknowledge this kind of attack let alone get into a video pissing match on youtube

its like feminists are storming the defensive line because the mgtows are to busy fighting each other to man the fucking walls

drkstrs · 2015-02-24T00:24:17+00:00

These channels are mostly light weight fare these days. I take a look from time to time, but usually I only listen all the way thru if they are truly advancing the understanding of a topic.

User-31f64a4e · 2015-02-23T23:09:59+00:00

I'm a big fan of Stardusk, Barbarossa and Spetznaz.

Sandman ... speculates too much for my taste. While he does have some good content, he also has too much speculation for my taste. I will give him an occasional listen, but if he's delving into an area where he really doesn't know much, I often wind up turning it off.

EDIT: Just listened to the Sandman video in this. He has a point about an inclusive male space, and the need for different types of content. But he also just takes some gratuitous shots at Stardusk to undermine his credibility, which is pretty much a bitch move. So Sandman, you're right about a need for a big tent ... and both of you, focus on the real problem and not taking shots at each other (regardless of how valid each shot might be.)

saga-jk · 2015-02-24T02:29:23+00:00

I just don't see all the 'disappointment' on Stardusk for his attacks on commercialization. He has always been critical on any message or ideology-oriented outlet of being a business. His widely (negatively) received criticism on Stefan Molyneux was, in the end, that his show was a business and therefore prone to be infallablity.

If there's one thing that I'll hold, is that Stardusk is at the very least intellectually consistent. Just like in his video, he does concede that he had been critical of receiving donations, and didn't make up bullshit excuses for receiving ones himself.

He has been critical of Sandman consistently and has maintained his frame of thought. I'm with Stardusk on this one.

TheRedThrowAwayPill · 2015-02-27T04:49:51+00:00

SANDMAN is fucking stupid and doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about 1/2 the time.

His monotone stupid monologues put me to sleep and have terrible cadence.

He doesn't give a shit about your movement and isn't even really trying that hard to cover his hopes for some side cash.

Also, isn't he married or in an LTR? That's not exactly MGTOW.

Bibosas · 2015-02-24T14:38:04+00:00

Drama over nothing. Stardusk became a woman.

Title	Stardusk vs. Sandman: Round 2
Author	Sgt_Miggs
Upvotes	1
Comments	33
Date	February 23, 2015 5:39 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MGTOW
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/2ww21s/stardusk_vs_sandman_round_2/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MGTOW/stardusk-vs-sandman-round-2.629520 https://theredarchive.com/post/629520

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