Firstly, let's put to rest the idea that the wage gap is the result of discrimination on the individual level. The Korn Ferry Gender Pay Index analysed more than 12.3 million employees in 14,284 companies in 53 countries.
They found that men were paid on average 16.1 per cent more than women on a global level. But the gap fell to 5.3 per cent globally when evaluating the same job levels alone, such as people holding a director position. The gap was further narrowed to 1.5 per cent when considering the same level at the same company. If men and women at the same job level and in the same company were also in the same function, the gap shrank to 0.5 per cent.
"In Asia, the study found that women make, on average, 15 per cent less than their male counterparts. The average gap is widest - at 19.3 per cent - in Asia's mature markets, like Australia and New Zealand. But in Asia's growth markets like China and India, the gap is lower at 14.4 per cent; in the fast-growing markets like Indonesia and Vietnam, the gap narrows further to 11.5 per cent."
"Female employees are actually favoured in fast growing markets. Women in these markets are paid 1.3 percent more than men working at the same level at the same company. Women are paid 3.1 per cent more than men at the same level, company and function in these markets.""
https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/government-economy/fewer-women-in-good-paying-jobs-not-unequal-wages-behind-gender-pay-gap-korn
If you're arguing with a feminist and you present them these stats to counter the idea that the wage gap is caused by discrimination, they have a few choices. They can continue to cling to the idea that the residual 0.5% global gap favouring men is caused by wage discrimination - at which point, in order to maintain the facade of impartiality and logical consistency, they'd also have to admit that men are discriminated against and women are favoured in these fast-growing markets where they found a 3.1% gap favouring women - or, they'd have to admit that there are other additional factors that haven't been taken into account which can explain the 0.5% residual gap.
Their final choice is to contend that the discrimination does not happen on an individual basis, but that there is discrimination on the level of occupations and fields. Devaluation theory theorises that a higher value is attributed to jobs or occupations typically carried out by men or associated with male-stereotyped skills and so discrimination does not take place against individuals but against the types of jobs that they do. Based on these arguments, devaluation theory suggests that male-dominated occupations are more highly-rewarded than female-dominated occupations because ‘women’s work’ is devalued by social structures.
However, there is basically no evidence for this assertion. This study tackles such claims. (Note, the link leads to a pdf that downloads)
https://osf.io/5u2nn/download
This study attempted to conduct the most rigorous test to date of the devaluation conjecture with regards to fields of study. They analysed data from the HIS Graduate Panel Study 1997 (N=4092), which allowed them to measure and control for characteristics that remained unobserved in earlier studies. What they found disconfirmed the idea that occupations which were dominated by women were being devalued because they were dominated by women. Instead, the reason why female-dominated occupations had lower wages was because women were more likely than men to self-select into disciplines that supplied cultural resources rather than fields which provided primarily economic resources. The latter, however, are known to be in higher labor market demand and thus to yield higher wages.
As the authors themselves say "Our results confirm Gerber and Cheung’s skepticism about adopting the causal interpretation to be found in earlier studies because our evidence leads to the probability that the relationship between sex composition and pay was entirely due to unobserved variable bias: earlier studies neglected the fact that fields vary in the degree to which they provide economic or cultural capital. We find that women disproportionately self-select into the latter, men into the former, and that this almost entirely explains the association between sex composition and wages. Based on this result, we extend Gerber and Cheung’s caution against hasty causal interpretations to evidence for devaluation from fixed-effects models because we doubt that the degree to which a discipline provides cultural or economic capital should be treated as time-constant."
"[T]he effect of sex composition on wages as derived from devaluation theory withers away entirely once we control for other field characteristics... Once we take into account that fields differ in more respects than just their sex composition, we find that sex composition itself is entirely unrelated to pay."
And if any feminist links you some study showing that the wage declines whenever a field turns from being male-dominated to female-dominated and asks "Well, why does that happen? It's the same field, but the wage still declined when women went into it" without also considering if the extent to which that occupation provides economic or cultural capital has changed overtime is, as the authors say, making a "hasty causal interpretation".
Women generally choose fields of study that furnish students with more cultural than economic capital and fewer quantitative skills. Fields that provide few economic capital and few quantitative skills should pay less for purely economic reasons. If a field changes from primarily providing economic capital to cultural capital, you'll see a drop in the wage, but also an increase in the amount of women who want to go into that field. That does not mean women's entry into a field or occupation causes a decline in wages any more than the finding that people in the UK tend to spend more in the shops when it's cold and less when it's hot means cold weather causes frenzied high-street spending. Drawing spurious conclusions about causality based solely off correlation is not a strong argument.
[–]Vespasians 8 points9 points10 points (27 children) | Copy Link
There is a reason no economist has taken this argument seriously.
[–]ObviousObservationz 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Taken from the article,
'THE GENDER pay gap may have less to do with discriminatory wages and more to do with fewer women than men holding higher-paying jobs'
So the gender pay gap exists according to these economists. It just has nothing to do with discrimination.
[–]Electronic-Ad-2852 2 points3 points4 points (19 children) | Copy Link
Economist here, yes we do. The general consensus in the industry is that women earn 73% of men generally, but once controlling for other factors (primarily pregnancy) the gap drops to 93%. There is virtually no dissent on this actually. Now there are questions about whether 7% is significant enough to require policy change, but thats really a question for sociology not economics.
[–]Vespasians 1 point2 points3 points (18 children) | Copy Link
Can you source your 7%?
[–]Electronic-Ad-2852 0 points1 point2 points (17 children) | Copy Link
https://www.henrikkleven.com/uploads/3/7/3/1/37310663/kleven-landais-sogaard_nber-w24219_jan2018.pdf
Looking to page 44 you can see the earnings penalty for having a child, as of 2005 it looks to be 21 percentage points. Taken from the uncontrolled wage gap (.73) it means the gap is .94 or 6% in this study. Other studies will show slightly different numbers. I have never seen one to show it was completely closed.
[–]problem_redditor[S] 2 points3 points4 points (3 children) | Copy Link
I've put this in the body of my post but the Korn Ferry Gender Pay Index in its analysis of more than 12.3 million employees found that the gender gap narrowed to 0.5% when considering employees in the same level, same company and performing the same function.
https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/government-economy/fewer-women-in-good-paying-jobs-not-unequal-wages-behind-gender-pay-gap-korn
Not completely closed, no, but very close to it. And the existence of an unexplained gap in and of itself does not prove pay discrimination - there are some factors which are still difficult to account for in these studies.
[–]Vespasians 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Spot on I'm deeply concerned that the other poster seems to think pregnancy is the only thing that needs controlling... Or that direct mean to mean comparison is remotly useful in economic assessments... I work very closely with the BOE economic team and a number of private economic forecasters. Yet to meet anyone that belives it's an actual issue or that anything can be sone about it.
A simple case study of nordic worker distributions can tell you that.
[–]Electronic-Ad-2852 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
I don't mean to say their analysis does not hold, but as an economist I cannot see where they have published anything. So there is no supporting data available and no peer review. Which of course is common coming from a consultant, and normal in that industry. From what I can tell they have done propensity score matching as opposed to an OLS regression with covariate controls for age, maternity, education, race, and gender which is the more common methodology.
[–]Vespasians 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
A methodology which conviently misses out a critical driving variable. Industry (or more accurately personal choice) which unfactored results in a large hetroscedastic divergence on earnings between men and women, relative to their earnings at the point they tend to have kids.
The age different genders tend to have kids is also not similar between the genders (which probably accounts for the trends seen on page 42 with women who don't have kids having higher wage growth than their male counterparts relative to t0).
.
[–]Vespasians 1 point2 points3 points (12 children) | Copy Link
This only factors in pregnancy... A simple case study of the labour demographics in nordic countries shows this to be blatantly misleading... So no it's not a solved issue. OPs source clearly shows the gap is significantly smaller.
No the gap will never close one will always be bigger than the other.
[–]Electronic-Ad-2852 -1 points0 points1 point (11 children) | Copy Link
Well pregnancy is by FAR the biggest factor.
Because pregnancy is the primary cause, it makes sense that the best remedy is to increase paternal leave to be closer to maternal leave. This would encourage fathers to equally prioritize family time which would be good for fathers and help close the wage gap. Its widely seen as a win-win, but of course there is just so much pressure to not change the status quo.
[–]Vespasians 0 points1 point2 points (10 children) | Copy Link
Well they're basically equal on the uk and most westerb countries... Not changed anything. The wage gap in nordic countries os 16%. Basically the eu average... The reason nobody cares is because any reasonable analysis such as ops post shows wage gaps are a result of personal choice bar small margins of error.
[–]Electronic-Ad-2852 -1 points0 points1 point (9 children) | Copy Link
Well its 27% in the US, which has minimal maternal and paternal leave.
One of the key take aways from the pandemic is that woman have had to take on a much greater burden of the increased family load then men. Female workforce participation rate has dropped dramatically. The load of family responsibilities continues to fall on them in ways that are not "personal choice". It will require a cultural shift in attitudes to overcome that.
[–]problem_redditor[S] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
"Had to"
Why is it that women's choices keep being portrayed as having been forced upon them? Are adult women completely lacking agency?
Also, perhaps gender roles aren't entirely socially imposed? Perhaps women and men in the absence of social pressure would still choose to devote their time to different things and make different tradeoffs?
The same can be said for men, just when it comes to work responsibilities instead of family. "Family responsibilities" are no more onerous or burdensome than the responsibility to work for the benefit of others.
edited to add more
[–]Vespasians 1 point2 points3 points (7 children) | Copy Link
Well i think we've explored how this number is incredibly misleading already so lets move on.
What's the actual evidence for that. This or some random survey?
Not really surprising considering that women are over represented in retail and hospitality sectors.
Yeah the us is simply full of aggressive men physically forcing their wives or gfs to look after their kids... Please give me an example where it isn't 'personal choice'
[–]Electronic-Ad-2852 -1 points0 points1 point (6 children) | Copy Link
Ha, really don't want to talk about this do you? The number does not tell the whole story, but the 16% wage gap you quoted for your Europe is the total wage gap, not the controlled wage gap, so the valid counterfactual for that is the total wage gap of 27% in the US. Given the massive differences in paid family leave between the two, it seems like a high likelihood for a causal effect.
The change in workforce participation
Do you have evidence to support that?
Woman have a role in cultural norms as well. You are implying I am blaming men, when I did no such thing. Its a straw man of what I actually said.
[–]Vespasians2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
Actually i was reffering to my other comment chain with you about poor modelling methods but i digress. If you'd read anything about nordic/ European economics you'd know that their closure of the gap is far more due to their expansion of child care and other post natal tax credits than maternity leave. (although admittedly the various state run ons is somwhat bias towards its own policies).
Nope I'm implying culture is the mutiplicitive expression of personal choice.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.people1st.co.uk/getattachment/Insight-opinion/Latest-insights/Female-talent/Women-working-in-the-hospitality-sector-report-Oct-2017.pdf/%3Flang%3Den-GB%23:~:text%3DCurrently%252C%252065%2525%2520of%2520all%2520part,cause%2520of%2520high%2520labour%2520turnover.&ved=2ahUKEwi1k8ur8qjuAhUwQkEAHQf0CTMQFjABegQIBhAF&usg=AOvVaw1AZMgkWaDioWpw81uJ0iie
http://www.travel-conference.co.uk/commentries.php?paper=291
It's a widely know fact. That women are significantly more likely to work part time and in front of house jobs in the hospitality sector, which puts them at significantly higher risk of termination in a downturn. This is 1st year economics.
Edit missed this : What's the actual evidence for that. This or some random survey?
Kind sexist of you to assume that a change in workforce participation is entirely due to childcare concerns and not say, mass unemployment during a pandemic.
[–]Electronic-Ad-28520 points [recovered] | Copy Link
Arguments around "personal choice" that women would spend more time raising kids reminds me of my time working in the Middle East. Its common to believe that women "chose" to wear the Niqab (total face covering) but that of course is not true. Even in the US, women give birth, and then we provide no means for men and women to take equal time off to care. So therefore women have become responsible for raising kids. Not a choice.
Given the fact some divorces happen, etc... its a HUGE disadvantage for women because then they are forced to make an income but have less work history. Also unfair to men frankly who want to spend more time with their family but have no paternal leave. But less risk for men, just not ideal choice.
[–]problem_redditor2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
I don't even disagree with the idea of offering fathers paternity leave equal to that of maternity leave but it feels dishonest to portray the female caregiver norm as forced upon women.
What the astute observer will note is that most working women with small children would rather work less, not more.
Even feminists promote the standard of long periods of paid maternity leave for women, even though they know that long interruptions in one's career incur penalties in terms of pay and advancement. They do this because it's what would make most women most happy, even though it results in the very negative career and earnings outcomes for women, and the very disparity at the top of society, that feminists decry as unjust.
Honestly, no healthy woman after an uncomplicated birth requires more than 6 weeks to be fit to go back to work. The entire argument for a whole year of paid maternity leave is that staying home with the baby is what the vast majority of women want - not because breastfeeding is necessary (even though it's the best option), and not because there's no one who could change diapers and provide hands-on care in their stead.
The reason why women become "caretakers" of children is not because they absolutely must. If both partners want to keep working without significant interruptions, they can hire a nanny or put their kid in daycare. If the family is low-income, there are child care subsidies available to aid them with that. If the father wants to become a stay-at-home parent he can do that (and the existence or absence of paid paternity leave in that case isn't really that big a factor to take into consideration anymore since he doesn't plan to return to the workforce). Point is, families still have options as to how they structure themselves.
Women take on the caretaker role because women don't want to be away from their babies, because they feel good when they're with their babies and bad when they're not. How do we socially engineer women to not feel this way? When even feminists are promoting the indulgence of such feelings for women despite that indulgence being a primary cause of women's failure to achieve parity in public life?
Do you actually know what happens in divorce? Divorce is not a disadvantage for women at all. Firstly, as u/Vespasians noted, women initiate the majority of divorces. Secondly, if you've read through anything in this subreddit you'll know that the outcomes of divorce are usually very favourable to women, to say the least. The courts give them 50% or more than 50% of family property, as well as primary custody, as well as child support. Sometimes they receive alimony. This is especially true if they can portray themselves as having "given up their careers".
After divorce men may earn more, but they surrender a huge amount of their income to their ex-wife and kids (whom they may not have an equal right to see) on pain of prison. After divorce women may have less income from work - but they still may have a higher disposable income because of the child support and perhaps alimony.
There are divorced women who've said they could've ruined their ex, if they'd wanted to. In her words, he'd still be living in his car if she hadn't held back during the divorce. That doesn't sound like a position of disadvantage to me at all.
[–]Vespasians1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
I was halfway through writing an actual reply to this but it's so mental i gave up. So here are some pointers.
The majority of divorces are started by women. There's a huge amount of paperwork on divorce courts and their biases.
Idk when you were last in the middle east but a Niqab hasn't been a legal requirement for years...
Spend some time in London or any European city, plenty of women choose to wear them. How many of them are forced? I think comparing maternity times to Saudi Arabia is a bridge too far.
[–]Electronic-Ad-28520 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Vespasians2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
What % of divorces are a result of donestic violence?
Stating a fact ie divorces are started mostly by women isn't blaming women, it's assigning accountability. Blame implies the woman is at fault.
Yes... Your point?
Ugh, hijab in islamic scripture actually means modest dress or seclusion of women in public spheres and the seperation of men and women by use of a barrier. Yes there are some types of clothing thst are called hijabs but it's more of a catch all term for a large variety of head coverings (such as a jihiab, shaylah or even a scarf).
Niqabs are a specific type of clothing that covers the face with the exception of the eyes. A burka covers even the eyes with a grid (hence they are banned in some western countries).
So yes i do know the difference (i suspect you don't) and they're certiantly common enough for the PM Borris to get in trouble reffering to them as letterboxes.
[–]TasteFlavored -2 points-1 points0 points (5 children) | Copy Link
You might want to actually research this.
[–]Vespasians 2 points3 points4 points (4 children) | Copy Link
You might want to read the link.
[+]TasteFlavored0 points [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link
Yeah it's cherry picked
[–]Vespasians 2 points3 points4 points (2 children) | Copy Link
In what way?
[–]problem_redditor[S] 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
LOL this post seems to have been brigaded by a bunch of idiot feminists. Thanks for handling a bunch of the responses.
[–]Vespasians 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
No worries, it's an entertaining destresser as the alternative option of the pub is currently under lock-down.
[–]prelude12342000 8 points9 points10 points (0 children) | Copy Link
But i "feeeel" like there's a wage gap.