What questions do you have for the #MeToo gang that you always feel like they can't answer?

funnybillypro · 2020-09-06T16:53:14+00:00

The classic one seems to be: If we're both too drunk to consent, who's the criminal? Curious what other curveballs leave you...

[–]turbulance4 9 points10 points11 points 5 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]antilopes 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

You are conflating two entirely unrelated things, one of which is wrong anyway.

A decision meant to be made in an organisation's interests is corrupted if the personal interests of a decider affect the decision process. This is why deciders are required to state their potential personal interests, and may recuse themselves or be removed by a supervisor.

Failing to disclose a personal interest is regarded as dodgy behavior. Andrew Wakefield didn't get his registration as a doctor cancelled and his research report on vaccine safety withdrawn by the publisher because it was proved to be fake nor because he accepted money from an interested party. He was deregistered because failing to state the conflict of interest destroyed his credibility and showed he doesn't have the integrity required for a position of trust. Same with a boss who is screwing a job applicant. They will probably not be allowed to participate in the decision, but hiding the relationship and not recusing would damage or destroy trust with higher management.

MeToo is a very broad movement so it is hard to identify a common position on something unrelated like sex work. I'm sure you are wrong with the "sex work is good" claim though.

People who opposing criminalisation of sex work mostly don't think "sex work is good". Prostitution has been fully legal here in NZ since the 1990s I think, and police had a policy of not prosecuting for long before that. There was a lot of discussion about it but "sex work is good" was not a part of it except for the side issue of disabled people.
"Empowerment" wasn't heard much either, other than the power to put food and drugs on the table.

[–]turbulance4 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]antilopes 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

"Empowering" means various things.

It is disempowering to have the law control what you can do with your body in private with a consenting adult, even if you didn't actually want to do that.

Some women are empowered by being able to earn more than they otherwise could, it can make a huge difference to their life.

Money is freedom. I push that very hard with kids considering running away from home, they should learn how to live on ramen and vegetable scraps purchased allegedly to feed their pet rabbit. And they should learn to do a better blowjob than the competition.

I push that especially hard to straight boys. Partly I'm trying to get them to face the reality of surviving without a bank account, a tax number or official paid employment. But also I'm trying to empower them because they will be recaptured if they run out of money. So yes sex work is empowering, not just for females.

[–]turbulance4 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]antilopes 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

I don't see a contradiction. Gifting cash isn't illegal, but it still wrong to ask for or to take a bribe for a promotion.

Or to offer a bribe, which corresponds to how a woman is unlikely to be hired if she comes into a job interview and tries to push sexual availability. Everyone knows how destructive that kind of person can be.

Same with how someone who flirts with their boss will be denigrated by workmates.

Bosses who exploit their power for sexual reasons are not at criminal risk. I have seen several laws on what constitutes coercive force. The only thing that comes near it is in Germany and maybe some other countries where the age of sexual consent law adds two? years to the AoC if the older person has authority over the younger.

I'm not aware of a push to criminalise sex at work. It would be unworkably complex. I don't think it is realistic and if it ever does happen the US would not be an early adopter. So you needn't worry about it.

You can look up some laws on coercive force to reassure yourself of where the bar is set. Threat of physical injury or of death or severe physical injury to another person is a typical criterion. Monetary coercion does not make the grade however extreme.

[–]turbulance4 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]antilopes 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I know the US (except Nevada?) criminalises prostitution but it didn't cross my mind because it isn't relevant to non-sexual workplaces.

There are discussions about workplace sexual harassment etc all over the world for the last 50 years, I've seen a lot but your comment is the first I can recall to claim any kind of connection with sex work. Work laws, policies and social expectations have changed but that doesn't affect laws around prostitution.

Looking the other way: many countries have decriminalised prostitution or changed laws around it, I have never seen any connection made to an effect on non-sexual jobs. If you learn all about the office culture and laws for a country it would tell you zero about their prostitution laws and culture.

Weinstein was vilified and thrown out of his job for outrageous abuse of his power in the industry. Not for any criminal offense. He was not charged until later, and there was never a time when I expected he would be found guilty of anything. If he had been found not guilty it would not have rehabilitated his reputation. I am interested in these issues and read quite a bit about him but took no interest in the trial, I don't even know what he was charged with, who the complainant was nor what the outcome was except some kind of guilt.

I just looked it up. 20 years for rape. Sounds normal given the US's crazy love of huge sentences. But what is your point? Rape gets punished, almost never but sometimes it does. Are you suggesting rape is OK if you do it to an employee, or that it wasn't actually rape but a consensual employment transaction which should have been prosecuted under prostitution law, or not prosecuted because it was OK?

Without looking at the case, allow me to place my bet that his offence was simply rape and the employment relationship was irrelevant to the criminality.

[–]turbulance4 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

I've seen a lot but your comment is the first I can recall to claim any kind of connection with sex work.

I'm not making a connection, so much as pointing out a contradiction. Either it should be legal to trade sex for resources or it should not. It can't be both ways.

Rape gets punished, almost never but sometimes it does

This is absolutely not true. Rape gets punished more often than other violent crimes (in proportion to their being committed).

Are you suggesting rape is OK if you do it to an employee, or that it wasn't actually rape but a consensual employment transaction which should have been prosecuted under prostitution law

The latter is closer, obviously. No body in there right might thinks "rape is ok". And I'm not necessarily suggesting it should be prosecuted at all. I would suggest sex between two consenting adults, even if for the purpose of exchange of money or job position, should be legal.

Without looking at the case, allow me to place my bet that his offence was simply rape and the employment relationship was irrelevant to the criminality.

No, actually. I wouldn't really allow that if I were actually given the choice. I genuinely don't believe he was forcing women to have sex with him. He was probably exchanging sex for acting roles which, while scummy, is not rape.

[–]antilopes -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Either it should be legal to trade sex for resources or it should not. It can't be both ways.

Why not? Lots of things are both ways, depending on context. You may fart in the bath but not at the table. You may bribe your sister but not a judge.

Anyway this is irrelevant. Neither of them were charged with a prostitution-related offence.
I suspect some of "Harvey's girls" as they were known could be charged with soliciting if there were evidence. And/or he could be charged with employing a prostitute. Let's imagine this was the case and there was evidence, and that he did some prostitution with the woman he raped, either previously or at the same time. So what? How would that change his conviction for rape, or the public's disgust for him, or his professional corruption?

Rape gets punished more often than other violent crimes (in proportion to their being committed).

I find that surprising, do you have a source? In the US 2% of rape complaints to police end in a jail sentence (NCVS by BJS, UCR by FBI). At most a quarter of rapes are reported. To forestall objections let's go wild and pretend false accusations are four times higher than the top rate normally accepted by experts in that field. Even so, that is less than one percent of raped people in any year whose attackers go to jail.

Are you suggesting rape is OK if you do it to an employee, or that it wasn't actually rape but a consensual employment transaction which should have been prosecuted under prostitution law

I would suggest sex between two consenting adults, even if for the purpose of exchange of money or job position, should be legal.

Your wish has been granted. That is the defacto position of US police and prosecutors for transactional sex within a company in the US, and in every other country I know of. Quid pro quo sex at work is not uncommon, proof must be recorded in many cases, people get aggrieved and attack any way possible, yet I have never heard of consensual workplace sex being prosecuted under prostitution law or any other law. Threat to fire or offer to promote or hire does not breach sexual consent. There is sexual harassment in employment law, but consensual sex is not automatically harassment.

I genuinely don't believe he was forcing women to have sex with him. He was probably exchanging sex for acting roles which, while scummy, is not rape.

He was certainly exchanging sex for acting roles, a scummy and not uncommon practice in Hollywood.
But that is not rape so he could not have been prosecuted for that. Read the law on rape for LA, and for your own location, and for NYC just for a start. The statute law is brief, it is easy reading. There is much more detail in the case law but the statutes give you the main idea.

You seem to be inventing your own facts and laws here. Maybe you have the same amount of confidence as me, who knows exactly zero about his conviction except it was for rape, yet I am certain it was not about an exchange of sex for something. But despite my tradition of often being wrong about US law, I think I'm right here.

[–]Grave_Heresy 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Umbran_scale 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Grave_Heresy -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Flawless44 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Dogrose22 15 points16 points17 points 5 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

If we are to ‘believe all women’, why do they not acknowledge those women who present evidence that an allegation is false? e.g. I was present on occasions that the false accuser who accused my dad said my dad had abused her, I KNOW he did not, not only was i there, we have other evidence to prove she lied e.g. a receipt to show a shed she claimed the abuse happened wasn’t purchased until years after she claimed.

When I asked to give a statement to police, the ‘detective ‘ in charge said they did not want my statement as ‘I was supporting the accused’ - she didn’t want the truth, she instead wanted to suppress the evidence available because it proves my dad is innocent.

A year after my dad was wrongfully convicted, the false accuser posted on Facebook that she ‘got [my dad] banged up for 15 years for something he didn’t do’ in order to threaten somebody else with the same crime, she even added the hashtag #I’llputthemawayforlonger

That was 2 years ago, my innocent dad is still incarcerated, the CPS and police decided there wasn’t enough evidence to charge the false accuser, yet they were happy to incarcerate my innocent dad on the word of a proven liar, drug addict whose own counselling notes stated that she had admitted that she ‘sometimes says things that aren’t true’.

I am a woman, but I am the ‘wrong’ type of woman for the narcissistic, selfish, psychopathic women who started and support the #metoo movement, they care for no one, regardless of gender, but themselves and their twisted, damaging agenda - I despise them and their horrific fake movement and look forward to their demise.

[–]Grave_Heresy 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]mikesteane 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]funnybillypro 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Dogrose22 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]antilopes 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

You have been lied to. "Believe all women" is a strawman invented by reactionary anti-feminists, it is not part of MeToo.

I don't know that police dismissing you and your sister's account has anything to do with this. Police have always had a problem with ignoring or even suppressing inconvenient evidence after deciding who the bad guy is. Their training stresses keeping an open mind when collecting evidence and avoiding the trap of thinking they know the truth.

But when they get overloaded it is easy to let that go. It is easy to start taking on the job of the judge, deciding on guilt during the investigation then switching to trying to convict that person. It is efficient to work like that so they get promotions, at the expense of justice when they make a mistake.

After a mistake produces a conviction a bunch of parties are invested in preserving the guilty verdict. It is much easier and cheaper to avoid bad convictions by staffing and training police well than trying to clean up the mess afterwards.

The testimony of a child in support of their parent has value but is always suspect too, children generally don't want a parent jailed. A child's lack of accountability if they lie to the court also works against them.

I hope you can keep in contact with your father, he will treasure your messages.

It is sometimes possible to overturn a conviction if there was an abuse of process along the way. Police refusing to take statements from yourself and sister might do that. The receipt showing the date a critical shed was purchased is powerful evidence too.

[–]Dogrose22 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I appreciate your considered reply however, I have seen enough evidence of supporters of the metoo movement proclaiming that all women should be believed to acknowledge that it is very much part of the movement.

The fact that police refused to acknowledge and record as evidence my own, and my sister’s, statements has everything to do with it, if we had decided to also lie and make false allegations against my father, they would have accepted our statements and lies and included them as evidence.

My sister and I are not children, we were not children when the ‘abuse’ was supposed to have taken place. We are, and were, adults.

If I had any doubt that my father had committed such a heinous crime, if I had seen any evidence then I would not be supporting him, I would not support anyone, regardless of who they are, if they had abused a child. I am supporting my dad because I know he is innocent, the evidence I have stated here is a small part of all the evidence of not only my dad’s innocence, but also the overwhelming lies told by the false accuser.

Supporting an innocent person isn’t easy, it would be easier to walk away, to live my life, to not be subjected to suspicion, continuing questioning, overwhelming fear and trauma but for me, I would rather know I have stood for the truth, brought what little comfort I can to my dear innocent, suffering dad, perhaps be a small part in making a change so that others in future don’t have to suffer the living hell my family exist every day.

[–]funnybillypro -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]antilopes -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"Believe all women" would be a catstrophic bumper sticker. The phrase is a sexist strawman created and pushed by cynical or hysterical male assholes in an attempt to smear women who report abusive men.

If you call them on it they typically start by innocently claiming it is true. If you burn enough time to make them admit it the evidence shows "believe all women" is said by antifeminists and explicitly rejected by feminists, they switch to a fallback position to denigrate the importance of literal words written and spoken by actual women, and claim to have access to a separate reality in which the real meaning is known to them.

Not that this is mansplaining of course. Men who know that a phrase promoted by men and not women, and consistently refuted by both feminist and antifeminist women, claim to know the truth that women just don't know about themselves. And rather than these men being honest about their godly mindreading abilities, they instead choose to slyly misquote feminists.

They have had some success in the places like this. I've seen many men here say "Believe all women" unironically, apparently believing it is a slogan used by MeToo and feminists in the real world. If you delight in that as a successful psyops campaign you shouldn't complain about MRAs being despised by normies.

[–]antilopes -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]funnybillypro 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]infrictus 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (15 children) | Copy Link

Its More of like why is society sexist and believe women are angels, that all men are bad, like as in women commit the same amount of crimes they just dont show up on the statistics bc their women and the court lets them get away with it, even if they are punished they get less than half the time in prison, they manipulate and play the victim they shift the blame onto men and say “he wasnt giving me enough attention” as an excuse to cheat when in reality they just wanted some “bad boy” dick, but when they get caught they pinch their cheeks and slap themselves to protect their huge ego and win the lawsuit so she can keep half of his belongings, they will lie to the very end acting like they are some sort of angel that cant do anything wrong, theyll say i didnt like him he was forcing me to date him so i slept w the guy i liked when in reality the guy they cheated on was just their personal bank acc. Mean while they were sleeping with other men, and everyone always take the side of the women in society. Women dont cheat less they just dont get caught, the simp will believe their lies bc when a man gets a woman hes “the lucky one” so he doesnt want to lose her and admit she cheated so the statistics are all wrong, men dont have backup women like women will always have simps and backup men in her dms so he cant just leave and these men dont want to admit theyve been cheated on.

[–]funnybillypro 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

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[–]antilopes 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Where do you get your news?

The Failing Washington Post which continues its strong growth in subscriptions, published 143 items containing "Tara Reade". Sorting by relevance, half of these were substantially or purely about her.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/newssearch/?query=%22tara%20reade%22&sort=Relevance&datefilter=All%20Since%202005

The Lying NY Times which has an excellent record for accuracy published 71 items containing "Tara Reade", half of them being mainly about her.

https://www.nytimes.com/search?query=%22tara+reade%22

The second and third tier news and the Youtubers and bloggers must have published parasitical pieces reporting on the reporting about Reade, or offering comments.

The NY Times and WaPo also gave detailed coverage to the woman who complained about Biden standing too close at a rally, and this extended to a general discussion of his handsiness. I'll leave you to do the search.

[–]Grave_Heresy 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]antilopes 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	What questions do you have for the #MeToo gang that you always feel like they can't answer?
Author	funnybillypro
Upvotes	30
Comments	47
Date	September 6, 2020 4:53 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/inpfpe/what_questions_do_you_have_for_the_metoo_gang/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/what-questions-do-you-have-for-the-metoo-gang-that.844520 https://theredarchive.com/post/844520

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