If You Support Men's Rights But Oppose Feminism, You Are Being Counterproductive

DepressiveVortex · 2020-06-11T01:18:58+00:00

When I see prominent feminists talking about and saving real men's issues, we'll talk.

Lethn · 2020-06-11T02:30:50+00:00

If you believe in anti-male conspiracy theories like patriarchy and toxic masculinity you are being counterproductive.

JestyerAverageJoe · 2020-06-11T02:37:33+00:00

The following is a very informed and highly reusable comment by Karen Straughan in response to a feminist who thinks the many blatant sexists among feminists aren't real feminists:

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.

Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.

But I want you to know. You don't matter. You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.

You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

duhhhh · 2020-06-11T01:19:42+00:00

If you support men's issues, it's time to stop pretending that most feminists are irrational purple-haired SJWs.

They aren't the dangerous to men. It's the sexist biased academic researchers, journalists, and public policy makers that are the dangerous feminists.

mgtowolf · 2020-06-11T01:22:17+00:00

Feminism is a poisonous cancer, right down to the roots

EricAllonde · 2020-06-11T01:24:49+00:00

Oh, look at the time. It's tone-police o'clock already!

EricAllonde · 2020-06-11T01:32:30+00:00

I can't be bothered writing something original to feed the troll, so here's what I said on a previous one of the many occasions we've had feminists in here pushing the same nonsense:

No one in this sub gives a fuck about men being able to cry or wear makeup/dresses. When you crap on about that here, you simply demonstrate that you don't care enough about men to spend 5 minutes finding out what the real issues men face are. Instead you're just trying to turn men into women, like all feminists do, because in your mind you think of men as defective women.

In this sub we simply want men to get:

- equal legal rights to women;

- treated equally to women in the criminal justice system, through equal sentencing as well as preserving due process rights for men (which are under attack from feminists);

- equal access to their kids after divorce;

- fair treatment with regards to alimony and child support, taking into account the fact that women are supposed to be strong, independent and capable of earning an income these days

...and a bunch of other, real issues like that.

While feminists are whining about non-issues like the wage gap myth and trying to widen the gender sentencing gap to infinity (by completely abolishing prison for women), and while you're doing the usual feminist thing of condescending to men by assuring us you support our right to wear makeup, MRAs are the only people actually concerned about gender inequality.

Well, that's not entirely true of course. Feminists are very concerned with preserving female privilege and other forms of gender inequality that are in women's favor. But MRAs are the only people actually trying to remove real inequality.

I suggest you shut up and listen for a while, to educate yourself about the facts that feminism works so hard to hide from everyone, not just amateur feminists like yourself. As it is, your statements are embarrassingly ignorant of reality.

TalkinTurkey · 2020-06-11T03:59:45+00:00

Hi, I'd like to have a civilized discussion and breakdown regarding your post, if you wouldn't mind.

we have an issue that most feminists and MRA's/MGTOW would agree on, but the latter group still opposes due to either misunderstanding or ignorance.

I have a simple question for this one, you're saying that the problem is us, correct? To specify, we aren't getting along due to simple misunderstanding or just pure ignorance, according to your claim.

Things like inequality in family courts, or unfair expectations society places on men, all of which are valid points.

You're agreeing with the fact that there's inequality in courts against men and that unfair and unrealistic expectations are placed on men, yes?

If the answer is yes, here's a follow up question. Do you believe that feminism has had no part in the inequalities that men have had to face here in the west? Do you have valid data to support your answer, and if so, could you link it?

Let's take the concept of toxic masculinity for example. A concept that's all about the unhealthy expectations society places on men. For example, how men are often taught to hide their emotions, be aggressive, ext. In other words, things that MRAs would often agree with and even bring attention to themselves. Unfortunately, many will often cringe at the mere mention of the phrase, and will miscategorize it as trying to "destroy masculinity," or something to that effect.

This entire paragraph screws with me. "Destroying Masculinity" isn't something we say, at least not something I've ever known anybody to say before. Could this be an exaggeration?

Also, "a concept that's all about the unhealthy expectations used against men," is wrong. That's not what toxic masculinity is. Many of us shun from this word for the same reason any rational person would attempt to dodge somebody charging at them with a knife, because it is a weapon and we don't want to get hurt.

The term "toxic masculinity" is a weapon, it is used by people who are looking to degrade a man for whatever actions the user of the phrase deems to be "toxic." Toxic masculinity is a term that's as bendable as an elastic, because it might be used against a rapist for his crimes one day, and a loving father for wanting custody of his beloved children the next. There are many men who are fathers, grandfathers, sons, brothers, cousins, uncles, teachers, mechanics, astronauts, wrestlers, librarians, pilots, captains, veterans, criminals, etc, who are all effected when somebody uses the term "toxic masculinity." This phrase puts all of us, with our varying beliefs, opinions, morals, ambitions, dreams, hopes, likes and dislikes, into a box that says "Male = Bad"

realize that much of what feminists advocate for likely overlaps with some things you advocate for.

Give me as many examples as you possibly find of this. By searching honestly for viable topics, you will either achieve one of two things.

1) You won't find much, if anything that backs up your claim, and you will come to the realization that the MRA and Feminism fight for things that are very different. It will be up to you which are more important to focus your efforts on.

Or 2) You will come up with an abundance of evidence that proves your claim, and if so, will cause me and perhaps others to reevaluate our stance for the better.

Stopping mindlessly cringing at terms like toxic masculinity, and actually research the subject matter.

You can see why we would have a disliking for such words thought, can't you? Do you not see how terms like toxic masculinity and mansplaining are doing more harm than good, vilinizing men for.. what, exactly? What purpose do these words exist for besides for crushing the spirits of men?

I'd like to close this off with a little note to say that yes, we have sexists in our midst. Just like how femenism has plenty in theirs. Some of us instantly despised femenism, but you might be surprised by how many of us, myself included, considered ourselves to be feminists as well upon hearing the definition before realizing the true impact of third wave feminism.

We want the best for our boys and our men. In the end, anyone who can find blame in that alone doesn't deserve to call themselves a feminist, an MRA or even a contributing member of society.

We don't want our happiness to come at the expense of women, believe me. However feminism has benefited by throwing us males under the bus time and time again. So in the end, each and every one of us should questions and consider our values.

I have, and I'm content with what I'm fighting for.

aussietoads · 2020-06-11T01:31:25+00:00

Let's take the concept of toxic masculinity for example.

Let's talk about how the term toxic masculinity is a gaslighting term, where the moment you object to it's use, the propagator uses the motte and bailey switch tactic and says, " oh it's a concept that's all about the unhealthy expectations society places on men. "

Then why not call it toxic societal expectations if it doesn't mean that masculinity is toxic.?

E.G. How does the term toxic masculinity differ from,

toxic air
toxic chemicals
toxic environment

Each uses the adjective word 'toxic' to describe the noun that follows it.

If you don't think this matters then obviously you have no grasp of the english language and sentence structure with respect to conveying the meaning of a phrase.

JestyerAverageJoe · 2020-06-11T03:00:01+00:00

feminist screeching intensifies

shit-zen-giggles · 2020-06-11T03:53:51+00:00

Feminism has used the same tactic that political populist movements (Brexit, Trump etc) use now:

First, make a statement that clearly over the line and is intended to produce outrage and pushback. Then when the attention and opposition has been created, assume the vicitim pose and lament how you are being persecuted, discriminated, attacked while defending/apologizing your statement with the most see through form weaseling.

This is what feminism has done with expressions like "toxic masculinity", "hegemonic masculinity", "precarious manhood", "fragile masculinity", "mansplaining", "manterupting", "manspreading" and so on and so forth.

This is what feminism has done when it first proclaims to be "just for equality" and than celebrate with #killallmen hastags. I mean nothing says "I'm for equality", quite like "#IwantToKillAllOfYou".

This is what you are doing in this post.

See also: https://heterodoxacademy.org/the-motte-and-the-bailey-a-rhetorical-strategy-to-know/

Title	If You Support Men's Rights But Oppose Feminism, You Are Being Counterproductive
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	0
Comments	66
Date	June 11, 2020 1:07 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/h0ox87/if_you_support_mens_rights_but_oppose_feminism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/if-you-support-mens-rights-but-oppose-feminism-you.850323 https://theredarchive.com/post/850323

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