Questions on Mens Rights for abortion

MrHolte · 2019-02-12T08:24:38+00:00

I feel its unfortunate for the man but ultimately it's the way it has to be. So with that in mind, and while it's not something I would do personally, I support the notion of "paper abortions" where a man can waive any responsibility/rights to the child.

If we don't force women in to parenthood, then why should we do it to men.

EricAllonde · 2019-02-12T11:25:03+00:00

Here's something I wrote a while back on this topic:

You are quite right, it is completely unjust that our laws currently allow women to force men into this situation.

If the roles were reversed, these laws would provoke massive outrage across society. We have had 60+ years of loud insistence that every woman must have complete, unfettered freedom to make reproductive choices for herself and that no one else is entitled to interfere with her choice.

But no one thinks at all about the man’s rights in this situation, other than to assume that, as usual, the man will step up and pay for the woman to indulge her whim, whatever it turns out to be. And if he hesitates at the thought of accepting 21 years of financial slavery, then we will use the power of the state to force him.

Our society is very gynocentric (woman-centred) and built upon male disposability: it cares far less about the rights and concerns of men than it does about the whims and wishes of women. So when the two conflict in any way, the result is always the same: women get rights without responsibilities, while men get responsibilities without rights.

This scenario is a perfect demonstration of that fact.

The Rights-Based Perspective

Women now have both the right to consent to sex and the right to consent to become a parent.

In the past, abortion was either unavailable or illegal, so a woman consenting to sex meant that she automatically consented to become a parent if a pregnancy should result. But now we have legal abortion, both surgically & through the morning after pill. A woman can also unilaterally decide to give a newborn child up for adoption in many places, and thereby relieve herself of any further responsibility for the child.

Thanks to the legal availability of these options, women have the right to consent to become a parent that's entirely separate to their right to consent to sex.

Men (mostly) have the right to consent to sex (rape of men by women is recognised as a crime in most but not all places, but is not always prosecuted by police), but men are explicitly denied the right to consent to become a parent by our current laws.

If a woman becomes pregnant by any means, including:

theft, e.g. taking a used condom from where it's been discarded & using the semen in it
deception or dishonesty, e.g. lying about being on the pill when she isn't; poking holes in the condom before sex; or offering to have oral sex and then impregnating herself with the resulting semen
fraud, e.g. by forging the man's signature on a form to get access to his semen stored at a fertility clinic without his knowledge
rape, i.e. forcing a man, or even an underage boy, into having sex with her

...then in all of these situations, she can force the man whose sperm she used to financially support the resulting child for 21-26 years.

No, I'm not making this up. Yes, there have been court cases which confirmed legal precedent for all of the scenarios given.

There have even been attempts to force sperm donors to pay child support, despite the fact that the men provided sperm to the women involved as a favour at their request and with the explicit agreement that he would not be financially responsible for the child (e.g. gay men helping lesbian couples have children).

Many of these legal cases have failed, but more than a few have succeeded - reconfirming the way that society and the law view men's position: men have no reproductive rights, they are explicitly deemed financially responsible for any child created with their sperm, regardless of the circumstances under which the pregnancy occurred.

I can't think of any other situation in our society where Person X can face serious, legally-enforced consequences for the actions of Person Y, which were taken without the consent and/or without the knowledge of Person X and where no argument for negligence can be made.

E.g. imagine a woman being hauled into court and told, "This man ran over a pedestrian with his car and we were going to send him to jail for 10 years. But now we know that you had a one night stand with him 3 months ago, so instead we're going to lock both of you up for 5 years each".

That scenario would generate absolute outrage! People would rightly insist that the woman had no role in the accident, in fact she wasn't even aware of it, and has no connection to the man apart from having had sex with him one time. So it's completely unreasonable to make her share his punishment for actions that he alone decided to take.

Now imagine that leading feminists and other high-profile figures step in to say, “This judgement is entirely fair. If the woman wasn’t prepared to go to jail, she should have chosen not to have sex with the man. If women want to avoid jail, they should just keep their legs together”.

Such a statement would provoke riots in the streets - but only if said in reference to women! Our society completely accepts treating men in exactly the same way. Yet both scenarios are equally unjust.

Our legal system treats the unwilling father in exactly this way: he's forced to share the cost of raising a child he didn't want, didn't consent to have and was completely unaware the woman was intending to create.

The Legal Structures

Our legal system explicitly denies men the right to consent to becoming a parent, a right which is granted to women by law & in fact is considered almost "sacred" to most women - just look at the level of outrage attached to any winding back of abortion rights by comparison.

Instead, the law sees men as a mere utility to be exploited in order to provide financially for women choosing to have children. The man is not entitled to reproductive rights or choices - those are reserved only for women. The man's only role is to work & provide financially; his wishes are not relevant, only his wallet matters.

The usual justifications do not stand up to even superficial scrutiny:

"If he didn't want to pay for a child, he should have just kept it in his pants. If he wants to play, he has to accept that he might have to pay." This is essentially the pro life argument against allowing access to abortion. If you make this argument to women, a majority of society loses their minds with rage. Yet we are supposed to believe it's acceptable to make this exact same argument to men?
"He does have reproductive choice: his choice is whether to have sex or not. All the choices after that are up to her." If we were to say that her reproductive choice is whether to have sex or not, then options like abortion & adoption become unnecessary. Just like the above, this is the pro-life, anti-abortion argument.
"This is not about men vs women, it's about the rights of the child. The child support money is needed to raise the child and that's why the man has to pay." How convenient that the child has no rights at all when the question of abortion is being considered, since that would limit the mother's available options and choices, yet the child immediately gains an inviolable right to forced financial support from an unwilling biological father the moment it is born! It's almost as if...the current system was designed to perfectly suit the needs & preferences of the mother, with no concern at all for the father.

If we accept that men and women are supposed to be equal under the law, then either both sexes are entitled to the right to consent to becoming a parent, or neither sex is. We cannot reasonably provide women with access to options like abortion & adoption, yet at the same time deny men any choices at all.

No amount of mental gymnastics can justify granting rights to women & explicitly denying those same rights to men.

The reason why the current laws are so lopsided is because they separate rights and responsibilities, which are normally granted together.

For example: your drivers license gives you the right to drive a car on public roads, but you also take on the responsibility for complying with all traffic laws along with responsibility for any harm you cause to people or property through your negligence or breach of any laws.

Yet when it comes to reproductive rights, the two are separated in a way that's not done anywhere else in our society. Women are given rights without the responsibility that would normally accompany those rights. Men are given responsibilities without any rights.

If a woman makes the decision to become pregnant and have a child, or the decision to continue an unplanned pregnancy, against the wishes of the biological father, then under a fair system of laws she would also take on full responsibility for the consequences of her choice.

Feminists have long argued that all such reproductive decisions should be left entirely to the woman to make freely on her own; that no one else should be entitled to any say in her choices. Fair enough. But rights come with responsibilities. It's completely unreasonable to give the woman full and free choice over whether to start or continue a pregnancy, but then stick half the financial responsibility for the resulting child onto a man who's had no say at all in creating the circumstances.

Her body, her choice, her responsibility to pay for her choice.

There was a time when women were denied some rights that men had, and feminists are still outraged about that fact now, 100+ years later. So there's no excuse for the reverse scenario.

It's well past time to give men the same reproductive rights than women have long enjoyed, including the right to consent to becoming a parent.

2019-02-12T12:11:43+00:00

Need a male pill

The_Pringles_Man · 2019-02-12T10:32:13+00:00

I think as MrHolte has said - a 'paper abortion' of sorts is a good idea. There does however have to be a time limit - it wouldn't be right if you could relinquish paternal rights the day before the baby is born.

Perhaps, a pre-pregnancy contract of sorts? I.e. you sign and date a contract stating that if a baby is born you relinquish all rights to it - and then there's no "whoops! I'm pregnant!" moment and you're stuck with a hefty bill.....once you're ready to settle down and have kids you could simply sign a new contract?

Ruben_Samich · 2019-02-12T13:32:51+00:00

Abortion shouldn't be able to happen at all, but I guess this isn't really the sub to talk about that

2019-02-12T16:02:38+00:00

Both should be able to opt out if they don't want a child but men should not be able to force women to abort or force her to keep the baby.

That's the only real way it'll work

14b755fe39 · 2019-02-12T18:14:38+00:00

I have been meaning to talk about this in here

Woman wants to abort, man wants to keep: her choice to abort because she will suffer from pregnancy and child birth. You can't force a woman to carry out 9 moths of pregnancy because you want a baby, go find a willing person.
Man wants to abort, woman wants to keep: abortion is a safe medical practice with few side effects just because she didn't want to get an abortion and 2 days of bed rest, the man shouldn't be forced to pay child support 18 years. Men should have the option to opt out of legal parenthood.

dmfreelance · 2019-02-15T06:18:24+00:00

In the end I want to have the right to decide whether or not I take legal responsibility for my child, equal to a woman's ability to absolve themselves from the responsibilities of parenthood.

Title	Questions on Mens Rights for abortion
Author	Leintk
Upvotes	9
Comments	18
Date	February 12, 2019 8:19 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/apr5z5/questions_on_mens_rights_for_abortion/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/questions-on-mens-rights-for-abortion.883971 https://theredarchive.com/post/883971

Comments

The Rights-Based Perspective

The Legal Structures

No amount of mental gymnastics can justify granting rights to women & explicitly denying those same rights to men.