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New Study Confirms Stigmatization of Men in Canadian Society (March 29, 2018) - Canadian Association for Equality

joxL7Mulder

April 1, 2018
145 upvotes
/r/MensRights
https://equalitycanada.com/new-study-confirms-stigmatization-of-men-in-canadian-society-march-29-2018-2/
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Title New Study Confirms Stigmatization of Men in Canadian Society (March 29, 2018) - Canadian Association for Equality
Author

joxL7Mulder

Upvotes 145
Comments 28
Date April 1, 2018 9:56 AM UTC
(8 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/88pt2s/new_study_confirms_stigmatization_of_men_in/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/new-study-confirms-stigmatization-of-men-in.903488
https://theredarchive.com/post/903488
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Comments

[–]ThirdTurnip 48 points49 points50 points 8 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

A supervisor accused “Derek” of being sexually interested in her. He protested that he only wanted friendship, and she was placated only after he explained he is “gay.” This sequence had happened to him previously. He said he resents the need to disclose his sexual orientation to be believed on such matters by women.

I've faced that one - except I didn't tell her I was gay. I naively thought I had the right to say no.

But I was actually told by one staff member (in the Social Work department) that I should have told her. As if every horny woman who can't take no for an answer has the right to personal details like that.

I could not make her understand that she was wrong - that I'm not obliged to share information like that with anyone. That no should be sufficient.

Instead, by not telling her I was gay, I'd somehow brought her transparently malicious complaint of sexual harassment on myself. After she had explicitly threatened me in writing via email for refusing to date her.

“Abused” estimated that “sixty to seventy percent of the (social work) course in which he enrolled was based on radical feminist ideology.”

I didn't take any social work courses but I was told by one of my tutors that this is what it's like.

[–]theothermod 18 points19 points20 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

After she had explicitly threatened me in writing via email for refusing to date her.

Copy that and keep the original as well as all other correspondence with her. It's evidence.

You probably don't need to be told, but there might be some readers who could use this advice.

[–]ThirdTurnip 18 points19 points20 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I did keep it.

That email was shown to this particular staff member and another who still - purely on the basis of my gender - decided that I must be guilty and immediately instructed me to apologise, without even being told any details of her accusations. Having assumed my guilt, they assumed I'd know.

Out of all of the outrageous shit - all equally well documented - which happened to me following that, the instruction to apologise was the only thing the judge was even willing to consider might be discrimination. And the judge wouldn't even consider the explicit email threat to constitute sexual harassment, though it definitely is.

It's evidence.

Which doesn't necessarily matter.

She even fully confessed in writing to all of her allegations being false, the moment they told her I was gay.

Didn't matter. They refused to consider her handwritten confession (they had other samples of her handwriting which she'd submitted) on the bizarre basis that it came into existence after the investigation began.

Instead they falsely claimed that I partially confessed - to making obscene remarks about lesbians - in a particular document where I definitely didn't, and found me partially guilty on that basis.

[–]west_pac 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This kind of shit is the reason why our fight is so important. It goes beyond simple petty workplace disagreements, the discrimination against men is woven into the fabric of society through the justice system, branches of government, all the way up to the top with Justin "because it's current year" Trudeau.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Christ. I usually try to avoid situations where I am alone with female Co workers for this very reason, no cameras where I work and it would be he said / she said Which never looks good on you....

[–]ThirdTurnip 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The worst thing about this was that I took it to court, with mountains of crystal clear evidence in support. Her written confession to lying about this. The police proving that she fabricated a series of death and rape threat emails, and again, her confessing to that. More inconsistencies in her stories than I could probably remember.

The judge was happy to concede that I had definitely been harassed (not illegal), but refused to even consider (his words) that I had been sexually harassed - despite all of this unarguably being inflicted on me because I refused to date her.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

the #metoo movement is too strong.

[–]ThirdTurnip 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This was pre #metoo, back in 2003.

I think it's been this way for a very long time.

[–]CanadianAsshole1 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

It's surprising to me how many gay guys are MRAs. Then again Milo is probably the most prominent MRA and he is gay.

[–]himynameis2442 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Why is that suprising? Gay guys are guys who literally don't need women and only need men. I'm surprised that there isn't a stereotype of mra's being gay guys like lesbians and feminists

[–]ThirdTurnip 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Gay guys are guys who literally don't need women and only need men.

Most of my friends were women pre all of this. Studying in psychology (70% women) and having worked in uni admin (also a higher proportion of women) that's just how it worked out.

I've landed in MR land because I want the right to refuse to date a woman. That's non-negotiable and I've been told by the courts that I don't have it.

All a female aggressor needs to do is falsely accuse her male victim and she gains immunity, even if you're gay and even with incontrovertible proof of her guilt. That worked with her sexually harassing me and it worked equally well for her stalking me.

[–]human_not_robot 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I suspect it's because there is a stereotype that gay guys are also feminists. Which was a stereotype that was pretty accurate from, probably, the 70s through to about 10 years ago I'd estimate. But I haven't heard a positive word about feminism from a gay dude in the wild for years now except from bisexuals who are still chasing pussy or in a relationship with a woman but willing to settle for another man when women are off the table for whatever reason.

I was certainly a self-described feminist for a long time, despite all the problems I had when dealing with them in my activist days. Eventually I got sick of being treated like property by the feminist movement at large and the final straw for me was when the feminists I knew starting expecting and demanding that I be welcoming and accommodating to people who subscribe to religious beliefs that explicitly say I should be killed and who respond to surveys in significant majorities that they agree with that.

But even without that - the fact is that I'm a man. I also love men and I love masculinity and the thrust of the feminist movement today is not to help create space for different kinds of men and different ways of being a man (which I support), but to directly attack the things I love.

[–]azazelcrowley 13 points14 points15 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Although the concept of stigma had previously been used to examine the place of various minority populations and women in society, it had not been previously applied to men.

GEE. Almost like they were prejudging the situation based on spurious, misandrist, and dogmatic ideological assertions rather than researching it. "World's flat, no need to check. Hey look, there's no evidence for the world not being flat, that proves us right." Feminist logic.

[–]throwaway59232 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Because the sample size was small, it could be that only a certain subset of men are prone to such stigmatization.

Of course, I’m sure physically unattractive, quiet, socially awkward men are no more likely to be branded creeps than any other subset of the male population, because everyone knows women aren’t mean and shallow like that. /s

[–]tenchineuro 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

In this study, stigma was defined as a general imputation of character rendering the stigmatized unfit for particular sorts of social interactions. The research explored the experiences of 16 Canadian heterosexual, homosexual and transsexual men. Although the concept of stigma had previously been used to examine the place of various minority populations and women in society, it had not been previously applied to men.

All participants in this research experienced instances where it was assumed that they were a threat to others or irresponsible and incapable with respect to family responsibilities. As a result, they were judged as unfit in their roles as parents or as employees in specific occupations. These judgments were made without any investigation into their actual parenting or work practices.

"of 16 Canadian heterosexual, homosexual and transsexual men." This is a very small, and somewhat odd study group. And why would TS men, who are really women share this stigma?

Robertson cautioned that while the study sample was diverse, it is possible that the stigma experienced does not apply to all men but to some, as yet unidentified, subset of men. He suggested that further quantitative research into the extent of this form of stigma is needed.

Say what?

“This research reinforces the experiences of the hundreds of men that have reached out to us for help in family court, in accessing mental health services and in their professional lives,” said Justin Trottier, who manages the Canadian Centre for Men and Families, a men’s social service facility with operations in Toronto, Ottawa and Calgary. “Men face stigma, but so do men and women who perform research in this underexplored area. Dr. Robertson deserves credit for this courageous and ground-breaking work. Our charity will aim to use his findings to help us better support men and families in our community.”

[–]ThirdTurnip 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

"of 16 Canadian heterosexual, homosexual and transsexual men." This is a very small, and somewhat odd study group.

Not for what they're doing, but CAFE have oversold it. I read the original paper.

There's not much previous research demonstrating stigmatization of men so any efforts to do that have to start somewhere. This research establishes that some men face stigmatization. Based on this, the same and other researchers will have an easier time justifying more expensive research to look at things like prevalence and effect on men.

This small scale study also does a good job of describing specific characteristics of the problem, which would also inform future research.

Say what?

Yeah, CAFE's release on this made me go cross-eyed a few times. Whoever wrote this might not have much experience with research and / or writing.

And why would TS men, who are really women share this stigma?

You really think that would stop the hate? You don't watch Will and Grace then? I know it's only comedy but this from a recent episode demonstrates the point.

Karen gets refused service by a baker because she wanted a MAGA (Make America Great Again) cake. Grace is initially unsympathetic towards Karen but eventually reluctantly agrees that Karen has been wronged and to fight for the MAGA cake. So she's in the bakery trying to convince them that she hates Trump just as much as they do.

Male baker : Actions speak louder than words, and your actions say that you're on his side.

Grace : Okay, I I get it from these two, but I am not taking it from a white guy.

Male baker : I'm transgender.

Grace : Did not know that. But anyway, you're still white, so stop coasting.

[–]tenchineuro 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You really think that would stop the hate? You don't watch Will and Grace then? I know it's only comedy but this from a recent episode demonstrates the point.

Actually I don't watch much TV, the kids normally own it and it's stuck on the cartoon channel. It's sad really, I was all primed to tell the kids about Sat morning cartoons, but when they were old enough it was no longer a thing.

But I don't think Will and Grace is much of a reference, it's comedy, right?

It's like 4AM here now, and I don't want to turn the speakers on, I'll watch this later.

[–]ThirdTurnip 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

But I don't think Will and Grace is much of a reference, it's comedy, right?

You also apparently don't read. I said:

I know it's only comedy but this from a recent episode demonstrates the point.

It does demonstrate the point. People don't necessarily know that some guy they're about to attack wasn't always a guy.

[–]tenchineuro 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

You mean this? EDIT: Just reread the original post and it was included. I need to fix coffee next time I get up at 2AM.

Actions speak louder than words, and your actions say that you're on his side.

Okay, I get it from these two, but I am not taking it from a white guy.

I'm transgender.

Did not know that.

But anyway, you're still white, so stop coasting.


People don't necessarily know that some guy they're about to attack wasn't always a guy.

While I get your point, you could have made it a lot more directly.

And I think in most cases where there seems to be some gender confusion going on, most people would try and steer clear of it if they could.

And part of this is very interesting.

but I am not taking it from a white guy.

But anyway, you're still white, so stop coasting.

I guess being a white guy limits what one can express.

[–]BionicTransWomyn[🍰] 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Say what?

Basically they ran a small qualitative case study and found interesting conclusions. Since they probably didn't control for a bunch of variables and didn't organize the subjects by types or categories, the conclusions that can scientifically be drawn from that study are limited.

The author is calling for a larger study based on quantitative principles so that statistics can be produced that have some legitimacy. His conclusion in this regard is correct and I hope it happens!

[–]ThirdTurnip 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Basically they ran a small qualitative case study and found interesting conclusions.

It's not a case study.

Since they probably didn't control for a bunch of variables and didn't organize the subjects by types or categories, the conclusions that can scientifically be drawn from that study are limited.

1) Researchers attempt to control for confounding variables (i.e. other factors which might account for differences between experimental groups) in experiments. This was not an experiment.

2) Organizing participants into groups is neither necessary nor always sensible, especially with an incredibly small group of 16 like this.

CAFE's post on this paper isn't entirely accurate but if you read it (I did) you'll see that this was exploratory, qualitative research in an area where there hasn't been much. It establishes that some men do experience stigmatization and describes some experiences of that.

[–]WikiTextBot 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Case study

In the social sciences and life sciences, a case study is a research method involving an up-close, in-depth, and detailed examination of a subject of study (the case), as well as its related contextual conditions.

Case studies can be produced by following a formal research method. These case studies are likely to appear in formal research venues, as journals and professional conferences, rather than popular works. The resulting body of 'case study research' has long had a prominent place in many disciplines and professions, ranging from psychology, anthropology, sociology, and political science to education, clinical science, social work, and administrative science.


Experiment

An experiment is a procedure carried out to support, refute, or validate a hypothesis. Experiments provide insight into cause-and-effect by demonstrating what outcome occurs when a particular factor is manipulated. Experiments vary greatly in goal and scale, but always rely on repeatable procedure and logical analysis of the results. There also exists natural experimental studies.


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[–]BionicTransWomyn[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

You're right that I used the terminology wrong in some cases (ie: Case Study). However my point was that it was just that, exploratory, and I was replying to the comment questioning CAFE's post about it.

The point about variables and control groups was that precisely because of the sample size and that there was no control of variables, the study couldn't be listed as authoritative, which is what this comment thread is about.

I did my degree in humanities and I guarantee you that most serious research in that field, qualitative or quantitative, needs to define variables and control for other variables. It doesn't need to be a traditional experiment. For example psychological studies based on questionnaires use that methodology. It's one of the first thing you learn in methodology.

The author acknowledges what his study is, I have no issue with the paper or how it is presented, but the title of the post is misleading.

[–]ThirdTurnip -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The point about variables and control groups was that precisely because of the sample size and that there was no control of variables, the study couldn't be listed as authoritative, which is what this comment thread is about.

You're wrong. For the reasons I described previously.

Not that anyone needs to take my word for it. Read the wikipedia entries I helpfully provided.

I did my degree in humanities...

I have an honours degree in psychology and was enrolled in a PhD, before I made the unforgivable mistake of refusing to date a woman.

[–]BionicTransWomyn[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

How about, instead of listing wikipedia pages (didn't they tell you that wikipedia wasn't a source in university?), you rely on actual methodology from the social sciences field? Let me help you out.

http://scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1002&context=oa_textbooks

I'd pay particular attention to Chapter 13: Qualitative Analysis. You might also want a refresher, so make sure you read Chapter 2 and 3. Finally, Chapter 6 should have plenty of information on how constructs, variables and concepts are defined, as well as the rigor necessary in their measurement.

I have an honours degree in psychology and was enrolled in a PhD, before I made the unforgivable mistake of refusing to date a woman.

And I have a specialized honours degree in a subset of social science focused on Conflict Studies. I took several classes on research methods in Social Science, including a seminar. To draw wide ranging conclusions about stigmatization and men, you need a stronger study with a wider sample and proper categorization. The researcher himself says this when he acknowledges the limits of his research:

Robertson cautioned that while the study sample was diverse, it is possible that the stigma experienced does not apply to all men but to some, as yet unidentified, subset of men. He suggested that further quantitative research into the extent of this form of stigma is needed.

Emphasis mine. How do you think they're going to find out if it's a widespread phenomenon or restricted to a subset of men? That's right, they're (hopefully) going to apply proper research methods, define proper variables and control for variations in the sample that might not be related to their gender.

[–]ThirdTurnip -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This is my final reply.

I have an honours degree in psychology and was enrolled in a PhD. I aced the research methodology and statistics courses. I know this shit. It's not even advanced shit. It's basic shit.

You're definitively wrong.

Wikipedia is a perfectly respectable site and a good place to send people when they don't know even the basics.

[–]BionicTransWomyn[🍰] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And I don't doubt your credentials, but I also aced my methodology courses and every methodology handbook will tell you the same thing.

Saying "you're wrong" over and over doesn't make it so. I've provided a ressource showing how things are done in Social Sciences, and hell, in pretty much any field that uses the scientific method. So unless you have an actual argument to bring to the table, I think you're making the right decision in stopping that discussion. If you do think of something more specific though, I'll be happy to hear it.

Cheers!

[–]DougDante 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

it is possible that the stigma experienced does not apply to all men but to some, as yet unidentified, subset of men.

Oh crap, our science doesn't fit the narrative! Deflect!

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