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Women Earn 98% As Much As Men (Economist, Print Edition)

CanadianOptionTrader

November 30, 2017
93 upvotes
/r/MensRights
https://mensrightsandfeminism.wordpress.com/2017/10/16/the-economist-women-earn-98-as-much-as-men/
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Title Women Earn 98% As Much As Men (Economist, Print Edition)
Author

CanadianOptionTrader

Upvotes 93
Comments 14
Date November 30, 2017 4:29 PM UTC
(8 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/7gnj0j/women_earn_98_as_much_as_men_economist_print/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/women-earn-98-as-much-as-men-economist-print.910176
https://theredarchive.com/post/910176
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Comments

[–]chambertlo 14 points15 points16 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Considering that women can get pregnant whenever they want, take off almost a year (with pay) and affect the companies bottom line negatively if they choose not to return, I feel that this is unfair to men. Men are actually getting the short end of the stick and no one seems to give a fuck.

[–]Tedesche 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

I think it actually affects women worse. As much as companies might be pressured to kowtow to feminist politics and hire more women to achieve diversity goals in spite of the fact that female employees are more of a gamble for them than male ones, companies will always prioritize their bottom line more often.

I actually feel bad for women on this front, because it really is their biology presenting a barrier to their employment. This is why I'm all for efforts (feminist or otherwise) to encourage more men to be primary caregivers, and let their wives be the breadwinners. If companies can't predict which employees will take more time off for parenting responsibilities just by looking at gender, women won't have to face this barrier as much. There are many other benefits to a more equal work/domestic division of labor between men and women too, for men, women, children, and society as a whole.

EDIT: Tagging u/JebberJabber on this one.

[–]JebberJabber 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It is not healthy for our society for companies to be put in the position where employing women is a liability and men are the safe option. I agree that removing mention of gender for parental leave and allowing it to be shared is preferable. The US seems backward in that regard, I think most western countries have been doing it for a long time.

In NZ we get 26 weeks paid parental leave which can be divided between parents as they wish. It is paid by the govt and equals their normal salary, up to the cap of 540/week which is minimum wage. (40 hours of our minimum wage is enough to live on in most cities).

Leave can be extended to a whole year, unpaid. Their job normally must be held open and it is common to see ads for 1 year contracts to cover someone away on parental leave.

[–]Tedesche 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I think most western countries have been doing it for a long time.

Define "long." I had only heard about this being the case in...it was either the Netherlands or Sweden, I think...a couple years ago.

It is paid by the govt and equals their normal salary, up to the cap of 540/week which is minimum wage. (40 hours of our minimum wage is enough to live on in most cities).

I'm confused by your wording here. How is the "cap" (i.e. "upper limit?") minimum wage? And does that really work with differing property values? If you live in a major city, in an expensive condo or something, how could you pay your monthly expenses on minimum wage? It sounds like wealth disparity in NZ would have to be drastically lower than most other countries for this to work.

[–]JebberJabber 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I looked up some minimum legal requirements:

1974 Sweden parental leave. (In Iraq women got full pay on maternity leave with an extensive system of state-subsidised nurseries. Women were said to get a better deal there than in the rest of the Middle East. That fell to bits due to the GW Bush administration's rampage after Sept 11).
1979 Australia, NZ: 26 weeks unpaid, women only. (NZ and Australia)
1987 NZ, 1990? Australia: 1 year unpaid, split as parents wish.
1988 All Euro states except UK had full statutory maternity leave.
1999 UK 3mth unpaid parental leave, mothers 18 weeks paid.
1994 Australia: paid parental leave.
2002-4 NZ: paid parental leave 12 weeks? + 1 year unpaid.
2010 Euro: maternity leave at full pay 20 weeks, paternity leave 2 weeks. Subsistence up to 1 year.

The lack of both parental leave and paid parental leave in the US has been regarded with horror by other western women for a couple of decades to my knowledge.

Wealth disparity in NZ has traditionally been far smaller than the US but it has increased rapidly since the 1980s for better and worse.

The parental leave allowance cap is about equivalent to 40 hours on minimum wage, so people who earned less than that e.g. beneficiaries are not so encouraged to increase their income by having a baby. It only covers a basic lifestyle. Employers and insurers can add to that, I don't know what is offered in practice.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/the-timeline-maternity-leave-2113236.html

https://aifs.gov.au/cfca/publications/dad-and-partner-pay-implications-policy-makers-and-prac/short-history-australias-family

[–]JebberJabber 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

In practice women can't get pregnant whenever they want. For the huge majority of women, they can try to get pregnant only when they have a suitable partner who is ready to have a child with them.
Unless you count accidental pregnancies as an unfair benefit to women that men should be envious of, or perhaps compensated for.

You make child rearing sound like the private project of individual women, with men suffering by not being eligible to participate in inflicting the harm the baby does to the woman's employers.

Men are eligible. I was a house husband when my baby was young, my wife went back to work early and I would bring the boy in once or twice a day for a feed. It worked fine.

Another way to look at is that societies need children to be born and raised, so societies should think about the best way for that to be achieved.

At an individual level creating a child is overwhelmingly likely to be a joint project between two partners, nearly always a man and a woman. It is inaccurate to see the baby's demands on the parents and thus on their employer(s) as somehow a cost that the woman inflicts just because it suits most couples for the woman to take most of the leave and provide the bulk of the flexibility required for childcare e.g. taking days off without notice to care for a sick child.

[–]AaronStack91 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That is not true every where, at my company you can burn leave your earned and maybe get medical leave for a few extra week. But it ain't a vacation for a year.

Also men can do it for paternity as well.

[–]dontpet 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

The article doesn't give a source for the data. When I looked up how much single women earn vs single men, women earn more. In America it was 8 percent more. In England it was a few percent more.

Get married, have a baby and it all becomes pretty obvious.

So couples combine income at that point and the earning difference means nothing. Sure, divorce can happen to some but in America they still get alimony.

[–]JebberJabber 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

Divorce happens to most.

In Florida alimony depends partly on the length of the marriage with none being payable unless the marriage lasts 7 years or more. This will be increased to 11 years. Is that typical for the US?

It seems alimony is going out of fashion at least among younger people. From 2012:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/kristen-houghton/is-alimony-still-necessar_b_1542291.html

[–]dontpet 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

America stands apart from most of the oecd. The rest of us have fairly adequate social support including healthcare. Add child support for the main carer from the less involved parent to top that up and people often have a bit more room to make decisions about their lives.

[–]Mode1961 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Do you think that is a coincidence now that more women are paying alimony, I DON'T

[–]JebberJabber 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Are you suggesting the proportion of women paying alimony is becoming larger than those receiving it, and women are deciding to oppose it because it is a net loss to women?

I'm not in the US but I don't imagine that is the case.

[–]Mode1961 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes and NO, The proportion of women eligible to pay it is getting larger not necessarily more women paying it as it seems men aren't requesting it as much as women do BUT that could change in the future.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What I find interesting is that this article essentially just shifts the goal posts.

It's not that men seek out higher paying jobs, it's that male dominated industries pay more. It's not that women seek out jobs with fewer responsibilities, more flexible schedules, and more local work, it's that female dominated industries pay less.

It's not that male dominated industries actively discriminate, but women don't apply to those industries because of language cues that indicate that it's a high pressure job that will have a lot more men in it.

By the time you reach the bottom of the article, women are dishrags. They have virtually no agency, they are pulled hither and thither by the forces of society, and don't have enough backbone to even withstand the language in job descriptions.

At least they admit that there's stigma against men in many female dominated positions. That's a nice start.

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