So I'm friend with this girl I met this year at school. We have pretty "divergent ideas" about social questions, feminism and such. She's more or less all in (she agree that some people goes way too far though, but we don't have the same definition of "too far"), she talks about patriarchy, about being "woke", systemic oppression and every basic stuff. I'm more of a skeptic/anti-feminist/pro GamerGate guy. I don't like big labels, and I could spend a lot of time explaining what I don't like in the GG movement, in the anti-feminists/MRA movements etc. Even there, I sometimes read things that I don't like, it feels people are sometimes as biased as feminists can be. But I still look around, read stuff etc. because it's important to stay informed and to be able to express a thought.
Anyway, I was talking with her, and as often, we end up talking about feminism and everything related. And I say to her
One thing that bothers me with a lot of feminists, especially in the SJW community, is that they seemed so one sided it's frustrating. I don't have seen a lot of openly feminist people that take the time to listen to you, try to understand you, and your positions. If you say "I'm anti feminists", you instantly become a MRA mysoginist white supremacist jerk.
To which she responded
Of course! Because feminism is like anti-racism, you can't disagree without being utterly stupid! You can't reasonnably think that someone can have reasons to be racists, that it can be ok to be racist. It's the same thing with feminism.
And at the moment, I didn't find what to say. In some way it felt wrong, I couldn't agree with what she was saying, but I couldn't find any good response to that. I think that there are reasons why someone can be racist, it doesn't make it correct, or forgettable, but at least understandable. But that's not the subject.
After a few days thinking about it, I think I found an answer:
Feminism isn't like racism. Sexism is like racism, both are ideas based on the fundamental idea of equality between all human beings. Feminism consists of theories that revolves around sexism, but are based on the idea that it exists a form of systemic oppression of men towards women. So while you can't really disagree with equality between races and genders, you can disagree with feminism. Because feminism is a theory, aka "a bunch of associated and contextualized ideas and considerations" (my own words, don't think it's an actual definition or whatever).
So maybe this will come across as obvious, but for me it wasn't, and it feels it was like one of the last piece of a puzzle that was missing, this "something" that made me unable to answer to some of feminists arguments. Because that's maybe the one thing that bothers me the most with feminism today: you can't critizice them. i don't identify myself on the right or alt-right, as a liberal, or any political side, but I really strongly disagree with political correctness, and I love freedom of speech, the freedome of disagreeing above everything else.
Maybe I'm naive to think that, but I really think that this issue (and many related) won't be solved with petty attacks, insults, lies, and turning a deaf ear to what "the other side" is saying. I don't even like the concept of "sides", we live in a society, it should be "together against the problem". I know that confrontation is inevitable, and often necessary, but there's also a time to settle down, calm down, and be reasonnable. By talking to feminists, debating with them, exchanging ideas and arguments, that's how I think we will go forward. And thoughts like this one I had and talk about here maybe will help during the discussion.
Anyway, I'd like to have your opinion on this, any of this, if you agree or not, if you have something to say, if you ever thought about something similar, or if you have encountered a similar situation etc.
[–]Jos_Metadi 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]bufedad 5 points6 points7 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[+]Lumenis points [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
Because I have this strange ability to dissociate to a certain extent what people think about stuff and how good I feel hanging out with them. Also, I like being around people that doesn't exactly think like me, it feels like it prevents me from going full circlejerk and close minded about a specific subject. Also also I always try to be moderate in a debate and to make the discussion useful and productive, and so I use a lot of "I think", "it seems", "I don't understand" etc. It seems to work. Also also also, I nowhere wrote she thinks I'm evil, or at least didn't intended to.
[–]bufedad 4 points5 points6 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]HotDealsInTexas 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]McFeely_Smackup 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Leinadro 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]aesopstortoise 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Leinadro 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]fengpi 0 points1 point2 points (14 children) | Copy Link
[–]Dembara 3 points4 points5 points (11 children) | Copy Link
[–]fengpi -3 points-2 points-1 points (10 children) | Copy Link
[–]Dembara 2 points3 points4 points (9 children) | Copy Link
[–]fengpi -1 points0 points1 point (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]Dembara 2 points3 points4 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[+]fengpi points [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link
So what is the point? When I said, up top. "there are no advantages to being black" you objected, so I guess I should've said "there are no advantages for being black, save for a few trivial distractions that I am obligated to mention so that somebody doesn't get butthurt by an hasty generalization"?
[–]Dembara 0 points1 point2 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]fengpi -1 points0 points1 point (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]Dembara 1 point2 points3 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[+]Lumenis points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
That's not the point of the comparison. The point is to detach pure decontextualized ideas from theories. Sexism is inequality based on gender, and racism is inequality based on race. That's it, nothing more. In that, both ideas are very similar. After that, whether or not there is an advantage of being male, female, black, white, asian, transgender or whatever, it depends on the context, on the culture, on the frame of reference.
You can't reasonnably say "there isn't any advantages to being black", because here's one: black people have a greater heat resistance. Also, black people have greater stamina. That's just biological, but they're advantages. If you want to talk about social advantages, I'm sure some black people are racist, somewhere, so being non-black around them may be at your disadvantage.
Same goes with being female. Yes, in our modern occidental societies, there are advantages to being a woman, but if you're a muslim woman living under Sharia law, I don't see a lot of advantages.
See? Everything is about context. You take an idea, apply it to a context, to a certain frame of reference, you elaborate theories from it, and then you can agree/disagree, a create a productive debate. But dealing in absolutes, with no reference whatsoever, isn't useful, in any way.
[–]fengpi 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link